Zinc Rich Oil for Flat Tappet Cams

Mopar General Discussions

  1. Mattax

    Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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    If it works for you, thats great.

    All I'm pointing out is that too much can increase wear, and in some cases, may not be compatible with an oil's existing friction modifiers and detergents.
    Widman covers this in his excellent overview of engine oils, as does Grant in his review focused more on this particular aspect.
    Both cite and quote primary sources relating to negative aspects of long term use of zddp above 1500, particularly these two:

    “Cam and Lifter Wear as Affected by Engine Oil ZDP Concentration and Type”
    Loren G. Pless, John J. Rodgers, Fuel & Lubricants Dept., Research Labs, General Motors Corp. SAE Report 770087, 1977

    “How Much ZDP is Enough?” R.M. Olree, (GM Powertrain),M.L. McMillan (GM R&D) SAE Technical Paper Series 2004-01-2986, October 2004

    Grant and Widman's articles are directly hot linked to pdfs.
    The SAE papers cited are available only to members or by purchase. Probably also available at most engineering college libraries.


    edit: @RustyRatRod While both Widman and Grant quote from the SAE papers, I think Grant has more of what your asking about.

    PS. Check out this post on IFSJA with couple snips of an article from the current Engine Professional magazine. Apparently the stuff comes in three forms.
    International Full Size Jeep Association - View Single Post - Our older engines and newer oil is not a good mix
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
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    • Mattax

      Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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      Interesting bit of history is that ZDDP's first purpose was to reduce oxidation. See the Grant article linked above. In the 70s they started bumping the ZDDP to .1% so the oil wouldn't thicken up. And if Grant's timeline is correct, it would be from 1980-88 that most oils had 1200 - 1500 ppm (API SF). Then levels started dropping, especially for oils meeting ILSAC GF specs.
       
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      • 318willrun

        318willrun Utube channel 318willrun

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        I think VR-1 Valvoline has 1300 ppm zinc and 1200 phosphorus (supposed to help) and will run circle track engines, drag strip engines, etc.
         
      • Mattax

        Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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        According to their product info sheets, thats looks about right for the regular VR-1, even a little higher than that. Its a little lower in the synthetic VR-1.
        PI Sheets
         
      • RustyRatRod

        RustyRatRod Bla de blizhibliz de blatde blizi bla bla FABO Gold Member

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        I find it funny that no one ever argued the point about ZDDP until the government started mandating its reduction. It's something nobody ever gave a damn about and never brought up. Now everybody argues about it. lol
         
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        • Mattax

          Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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          Not the gummymint. The 800 ppm thing is mostly ILSAC.
           
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          • 318willrun

            318willrun Utube channel 318willrun

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            To, the flatten cam lobes on the sbc's (especially 305's) helped accelerated those arguments, along with some poor ole' engine builders that hadn't a clue and lost a few rebuilt motors due to cam failure..….
            Oil companies certainly didn't make it a front page announcement when they pulled the zinc from around 1200 ppm to about 600 ppm to stop plugg'n up catalytics . Stiff valve springs on a new engine just were killed by it.
             
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            • RustyRatRod

              RustyRatRod Bla de blizhibliz de blatde blizi bla bla FABO Gold Member

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              And who do you think told them what to do, Mary Poppins? It was the EPA. The government.
               
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              • Mattax

                Mattax Just the facts, ma'am FABO Gold Member

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                It was $$$$ that do the talking.
                Ford Diesel oil is an example of an exception. It meets their specs. The ZDDP in it is higher because they think its needed for some of their engines. No one is telling to them what to do. They decided reducing risk to engine was worth more than reducing risk to cats.
                 
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                • RustyRatRod

                  RustyRatRod Bla de blizhibliz de blatde blizi bla bla FABO Gold Member

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                  You keep on thinkin that and it'll be your little secret. It's all about what the EPA allows regarding emissions. It always has been. Zinc and phosphorus are the two main ingredients in ZDDP. They are also two very poisonous chemicals when burned.
                   
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                  • 69hemibeep

                    69hemibeep Well-Known Member

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                    Pretty sure it had to do with fouling catalytic converters and that is why they left diesel oils alone for years. But in the long game it is for emmision systems aka epa. Even the best diesel oils are low in ZDDP now
                     
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                    • JBurch

                      JBurch Well-Known Member

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                      I use 15-40 Rotella, with STP Blue bottle which has roughly twice the zinc of the red bottle......blue bottle has (foggy memory here) something like 3000ppm of zinc or close to it
                       
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                      • Fast340cuda

                        Fast340cuda Well-Known Member

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                        • toolmanmike

                          toolmanmike FABO MODERATOR Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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                          Read around different reports on the net. Too much is not good apparently.
                           
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                          • dart4forte

                            dart4forte FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                            Years ago a member on here was selling ZDDP by the case at a really good price. Bought 3 cases. Gave one case to my engine builder friend and I still have about a case and a half left.
                             
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                            • RustyRatRod

                              RustyRatRod Bla de blizhibliz de blatde blizi bla bla FABO Gold Member

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                              One more thing too......if you decide to run a ZDDP additive, make SURE it has ZDDP in it. Believe it or not, a LOT of them don't. We sell one at O'Reilly that has ZDDP all over the front, but in the fine print, it says "contains no zinc or phosphorus". So READ what you buy.
                               
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                              • MopaR&D

                                MopaR&D Nerd Member

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                                Even though it will have a roller cam I plan to use Schaeffer's oil in my 5.9 Magnum because it has molybdenum. That's the big "new thing" in motor oil and its pretty amazing for wear; in some cases it can even repair slight wear at the microscopic level. I used to use Brad Penn which is great oil but the Schaeffer's 7000 is like $1/qt more if that and it has the moly. Not saying it's a replacement for zinc I just think it's cool tbh.
                                 
                              • crackedback

                                crackedback FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                                Lucas hot rod and mix it with whatever else you want to use to hit a PPM number. I had a spreadsheet to figure that stuff out. Lucas was cheaper way to go compared to some of the alternatives.
                                 
                              • toolmanmike

                                toolmanmike FABO MODERATOR Staff Member FABO Gold Member

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                                I don't like the idea of 15-40 diesel oil myself. I don't need the viscosity and Diesel oil has more ash in it. That's supposed to cause piston deposits. Some things I read don't like the additives because they might not mix well and/or stay suspended in the oil. The best bet would be to use oil specifically formulated for older engines with enough zinc and phosphorous in it.
                                 
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                                • thesiren74

                                  thesiren74 Well-Known Member

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                                  Vr-1 because i just don't want to mess with mixing additives that can separate.
                                   
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                                  • oldskool979

                                    oldskool979 Well-Known Member

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                                    Might want to look at Amsoil Z-rod synthetic. Supposed to be 1400 zddp Not cheap, but can get free grd shipping or get preferred cust membership eligible for 25% discount.
                                     
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                                    • gliderider06

                                      gliderider06 Well-Known Member

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                                      Exactly what I use in my daily driven Ramcharger. 140,000 miles and purrs Like a kitty.
                                       
                                    • bluefish

                                      bluefish mopar dave

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                                      Brad Penn or Asmsoil.
                                       
                                    • ir3333

                                      ir3333 Well-Known Member

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                                      Have a look at this...all i use is Penzoil 5w30.A lot of guys think the zinc thing is a billion dollar money maker. I think regular oils still have 800 ppm.
                                       
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                                      • 318willrun

                                        318willrun Utube channel 318willrun

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                                        A few years back, I called Valvoline myself. They said "if you have a classic with 60k miles on it already, per say, regular motor oil should be sufficient". Probably true, but when we add valve spring pressure to match our cams, the care of the lubrication for the FT cam lobes intensifies.

                                        My opinion, if your stock 318 in your '78 Dodge truck, per say, has 112k and running good, probably nothing to worry about. Once you add high pressure valve springs to match that fast-ramp cam, even a mild cam, you better be protecting your investment.
                                         
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