440 problems (take 2)... More known values

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dkbug

dkbug

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Ok lets try this again.

I took some time and carefully measured some stuff to get more clear answers before I start throwing parts at this motor.

1978 440
20/20 crank - stock stroke/rods
bored .030" over
Flat top L2266 pistons WITHOUT VALVE RELIEFS
The pistons sit .084" in the hole - Moly rings
906 heads (2.14" intake and 1.81" exhaust) - ported - stock cc
Stock non-adjustable rockers
Comp cams valve springs that were chosen for a .528 cam
Moly pushrods 9.3" in length
No camshaft chosen yet (I want to go with a hydraulic cam)
Weiand dual plane intake
750 Eddy carb


2800 stall converter - 28" tire - 3.23 gear






Now with all of that out of the way. I know there are a few things that definitely need to be changed. Gears, cam, possibly other things.... ect....

I would like to know what I can do to my setup to make it a good ground pounding cruiser. I do not want to hit the track with this car. I have no intentions in racing this car, but the occasional street light rival is ideal. But mainly after a fun ride to Braums on a weekend night with my girlfriend...

I want a reliable set up that will require minimal maintenance, hence the hydraulic cam over a solid...

Now I am on a budget, I know you guys probably hear that all the time. School has taken the majority of my money for the time being. I would like to retain my stock rockers and converter if possible.

If you have nothing nice to say, take it somewhere else. Don't really care that you have 9 second car that you built by hand by mining the metals and smithing everything yourself and that it runs on unicorn urine. I have one thing in mind, and that is a fun weekend cruiser/pounder.... Nothing more.





aaaannnnnddddddd go!

Thanks in advance.
 
If I left something out, please let me know kindly and I will do my best to get you an answer.
 
I estimated your compression ratio at around 9.5.
If that is correct, then you will want a cam, with an installed intake closing angle of between 60 and 56 degrees.This will get you a Dcr of 8.0/1 or a little under. This is probably a pretty small cam, depending on what LDA you choose.But it will probably be able to burn 87 gas
Once the cam and the lifters are in there,you will have to check/correct the rocker geometry with checking springs, and an adjustable pushrod.Then order the correct length pushrods.While you are waiting for those, you can install whatever springs the cam vendor recommends.
This cam will do well with the 3.23s. I would not change the gears or the TC until the engine is running and has been tuned.
If you supply the cylinder head chamber volume, a more accurate CR can be established, and perhaps a different ICA will be spit out by the calculator.
 
If it were me, I'd lose the 2800 convertor for a stock type hi stall which will be closer to 2K with what you have. The higher stall will work, but will probably higher than 2800 with those gears, and may feel soft when cruising below 3K. Depending on the tire size that could be any speed under 60mph...
On the camshaft - you have little static compression. Keep it small and you'll be happier. Less than 225° @ .050. A Comp XE268 or even 262, the Crane 680321 or 683941, Engle EP-18HYD, etc etc etc. Any of those should work with the springs you have and stamped arms - but you will probably have to measure for custom pushrods to get the preload to manufacturer's recommended. The odds of what you have for pushrods being perfect are not really that good.
 
I currently run the .528 cam in my 440 and have a 3500 stall with 28" tires. In OD I have a 3.47:1 ratio. The rear axle ratio is 4.56:1.

I used to run a 26" tall tire with 3:73 gears, which with the OD was in the 2.xx range.

I would not change from the 2800 stall, I might even add more.


I agree with Moper in regards to backing off the duration at .050. [email protected] might be a bit high for your compression and cause it to be sloppy.
 
the l2266f 30 is made by federal mogul, has a comp distance of 1.991", and federal mogul says a .089" deck height with an uncut block and 88 cc heads and a .039" gasket gives 8.7:1 comp. ratio or 9.4:1 with a 78 cc closed chamber heads. I like the Comp. 21-305-4 magnum muscle hydraulic cam,should be good with the springs U have, and with an uncut (maybe cut .005") block and stock heads should be fine with the stock 9.30" pushrods. I do work at a foundry making castings but I use 93 octane pump gas
 
Haven't been able to get ahold of the stuff to check the cc of my heads. I plan to do so eventually. Is there a way to check if these heads have been milled with a micrometer? I know checking the volume of the cc will tell me this, but I won't be able to check that for awhile. I would like to check to see if they have been milled, that way I can get pretty close with the static compression. Like someone explained before, no way to accurately find the dynamic compression without ALOT of $..


I called a couple cam companies and got two different answers.

Here is one - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-23-225-4/overview/

the other - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-21-305-4

Sorry, but to me 222 vs 240 @ 050 is a big difference. But will it make a big difference in sloppiness?

What is you guys' two cents? One of those cams is a 1 bolt cam gear, I have a 3, so I need to find the alternative.
 
Oh and by the way, I purchased a set of adjustable ductile rockers. Decided I didn't want to sacrifice power over a set of $200 rockers which is cruicial for higher lift cams.
 
Good choice on the rockers.

Your asking the right questions. Once you get your static compression figured out you can figure out what intake closeing point you need and select a cam.

You can measure your cylinder head volume very cheaply at home with a 100cc syringe and a piece of plexi glass. I use this method and it works just fine.

Here are a few links you can click on.
The first is a syringe at amazon and the next is the instructions on how to cc your heads using the syringe.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B013AHTZS2/?tag=joeychgo-20

http://www.fordmuscle.com/fundamentals/ccing/
 
moper said:
If it were me, I'd lose the 2800 convertor for a stock type hi stall which will be closer to 2K with what you have. The higher stall will work, but will probably higher than 2800 with those gears, and may feel soft when cruising below 3K. Depending on the tire size that could be any speed under 60mph...
On the camshaft - you have little static compression. Keep it small and you'll be happier. Less than 225° @ .050. A Comp XE268 or even 262, the Crane 680321 or 683941, Engle EP-18HYD, etc etc etc. Any of those should work with the springs you have and stamped arms - but you will probably have to measure for custom pushrods to get the preload to manufacturer's recommended. The odds of what you have for pushrods being perfect are not really that good.
Click to expand...
100% Agree, especially about the torque converter. Since you're on a tight budget you should try the converter you have and see what its like but I think its a bit loose for your combo. Converters act very differently depending on load. if you had 4.10s with that converter it would feel much tighter but since you have 3.23s the load on it will be much higher which will cause much more slippage while cruising which detracts from the driving experience and generates lots of heat in the trans. Another thing you may want to experiment with is the intake. The one you have is fine for your combo but you will all most certainly see gains with no losses by going to a Performer RPM.
 
Yes - farm supply or vet supply places are great sources for big volume syringes.
 
dkbug said:
Ok lets try this again.

I took some time and carefully measured some stuff to get more clear answers before I start throwing parts at this motor.

1978 440
20/20 crank - stock stroke/rods
bored .030" over
Flat top L2266 pistons WITHOUT VALVE RELIEFS
The pistons sit .084" in the hole - Moly rings
906 heads (2.14" intake and 1.81" exhaust) - ported - stock cc
Stock non-adjustable rockers
Comp cams valve springs that were chosen for a .528 cam
Moly pushrods 9.3" in length
No camshaft chosen yet (I want to go with a hydraulic cam)
Weiand dual plane intake
750 Eddy carb


2800 stall converter - 28" tire - 3.23 gear






Now with all of that out of the way. I know there are a few things that definitely need to be changed. Gears, cam, possibly other things.... ect....

I would like to know what I can do to my setup to make it a good ground pounding cruiser. I do not want to hit the track with this car. I have no intentions in racing this car, but the occasional street light rival is ideal. But mainly after a fun ride to Braums on a weekend night with my girlfriend...

I want a reliable set up that will require minimal maintenance, hence the hydraulic cam over a solid...

Now I am on a budget, I know you guys probably hear that all the time. School has taken the majority of my money for the time being. I would like to retain my stock rockers and converter if possible.

If you have nothing nice to say, take it somewhere else. Don't really care that you have 9 second car that you built by hand by mining the metals and smithing everything yourself and that it runs on unicorn urine. I have one thing in mind, and that is a fun weekend cruiser/pounder.... Nothing more.





aaaannnnnddddddd go!

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...


Do a search for IQ52 and read some of his threads and builds. Some will surprise you and can be done cheaply, I'm duplicating one of his builds and I've got less than a grand into it thus far, tight budget myself but it can be done.
 
One thing I should have mentioned. A transmission temp gauge is cheap insurance. I use a mechanical (non electric) water temp gauge for the trans in mine because I have a bunch of them I've accumulated over the years. The best place to get the temp from is the trans pan. I found a good spot on the front of the pan and installed a 1/2 inch NPT bung for the bulb to screw into. Anything over 200 F and you know you need to increase the cooling. I know its off topic but if you do use the converter you have the temp can be an issue. Automatic transmissions fail quickly if they run hot.
 
Good info everyone. I went ahead and ordered the syringe off of amazon. I took the volume from one chamber on both heads. Both sides measured at a hair under 88 cc. If I were to put a number to be a bit more precise, i would say 87.7 or 87.8.

Good info guys. I have the cluster setup to run a trans temp, i just havent hooked it up yet. Im going to splice into the feed side of my trans cooler.

So with 87.7 cc and my current pistons, i am looking at a static compression ratio of around 8.6:1 or 8.7:1?

This tax season I am upgrading to either a 3.91 or a 4.10 suregrip. Its just a matter of time.

Now i just need to know what cam to order. I have both a one bolt timing gear, and a 3 bolt. So keep that in mind.

Would you guys vote for upping the compression a bit more, ir going with what I have? I am sure I can get my 906 heads milled a tad bit to upp it a little, or I can run a thinner gasket. Let me know what you guys think.

Just to recap everything

Camless this far
87.8 cc heads with bigger valves, size listed above
.030" L2266 pistons .084" in the hole
Stock stroke
Dual plane weiand intake
29" tire
Will be a 4.10 or 3.91 gear so calculate for that
 
Oh and I have adjustable rockers now. So size of cam is a little less of an issue with my valvetrain now.
 
with the average thicker than stock, replacement .040" gasket U are at 8.7:1 . Save a little $ by not cutting the heads, run the thin steel shim gasket sprayed on both sides with Permatex coppercoat. I still think the comp 21-305-4 cam is it for your total application, and the valvesprings U have
 
Marcohotrod said:
with the average thicker than stock, replacement .040" gasket U are at 8.7:1 . Save a little $ by not cutting the heads, run the thin steel shim gasket sprayed on both sides with Permatex coppercoat. I still think the comp 21-305-4 cam is it for your total application, and the valvesprings U have
Click to expand...

Before I pull the trigger, is there a 3-bolt version of this cam?
 
dkbug said:
Before I pull the trigger, is there a 3-bolt version of this cam?
Click to expand...

IDK if this cam is available in three bolt but if it were me I'd opt for a more modern cam. I'm not saying its the wrong cam or that it would not work well. What I am saying is from what I read about it its a replica of a cam that was designed decades ago. Cam technology has come a very long way since then.
 
Doosterfy said:
IDK if this cam is available in three bolt but if it were me I'd opt for a more modern cam. I'm not saying its the wrong cam or that it would not work well. What I am saying is from what I read about it its a replica of a cam that was designed decades ago. Cam technology has come a very long way since then.
Click to expand...

Ok who or what cam company do you suggest? I am not opposed to going with a more modern cam, but I am on a budget. What cam company will do a custom grind without bending me over on the price?
 
UPDATE:

I picked up a blem aluminum water pump housing for $20 yesterday. It is brand new and the blem is the ports. They seem to be cast just a bit small so I opened them up with a handy dandy dremel tool. Good investment I think. If anyone need one of the passenger side outlet cast iron ones let me know.
 
dkbug said:
Ok who or what cam company do you suggest? I am not opposed to going with a more modern cam, but I am on a budget. What cam company will do a custom grind without bending me over on the price?
Click to expand...
I've been running COMP cams for years and been happy with the power and overall performance. I had one small quality issue with the last cam (the one I'm using now) I bought from them. The bolt holes for the timing gear were tapped for fine thread instead of the usual course threads it should have had. I wound up going to Fastenal and buying grade 8 fine thread bolts and moved on with the build. I don't see any reason you would need a custom grind, there are plenty of good off the shelf cams for your application. Best bet is to go to the COMP web site and navigate through until you get to the cams for your engine. That's how I choose my cams. COMP gives good thorough descriptions of the cams and what applications they are meant for including compression ratios, gear ratios, weight and converter stall. More than likely one of the Xtreme Energy flat hydraulic cams would be right for your engine. You'll find good cams from plenty of other companies too, Lunati, Crower, Engle, Crane and others have all been making cams for a very long time and know what works.
 
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