Setting the timing on a 69 318

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fuzzman

fuzzman

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i have a 69 318 that had a complete refresh basically a stock set up may have slightly larger pistons due to wear on the bore but a stock cam. The 69 service manual says that the timing should be set at 0 top dead center. The first test drive noticed while climbing a hill it pinged so what do you guys suggest where the timing should be set at for this set up. Thanks in advance
Pat Faley
69 barracuda convertible
67 barracuda notchback
East Peoria IL
 
Well, quickly i would say zero isn't too much timing. Perhaps your vacuum advance is pulling way too much timing?
Many factors, but i would disconnect the vacuum advance and see if it pings...
Or maybe you don't have enough timing....

Like i said, could be other contributors, but i'd start with this
 
318willrun said:
Well, quickly i would say zero isn't too much timing. Perhaps your vacuum advance is pulling way too much timing?
Many factors, but i would disconnect the vacuum advance and see if it pings...
Or maybe you don't have enough timing....

Like i said, could be other contributors, but i'd start with this
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I also noticed that according to the stock temp gauge showing rung warm I’m using a 190 stat which is what the service manual recommends. Don’t have a temp gauge but just know it shows temp running high if that helps with information
Pat
 
69 318 specs from FSM for my vehicle. I run my '69 with a stealth intake, edelbrock 600, Electronic Ign with Orange box, RN12YC, long tube headers at 7000 ft above sea level, I run at 12* BTDC.

Screen Shot 2018-04-18 at 2.14.07 PM.png
 
Rework the distributor so you can put sufficient initial timing on the engine.

5* BTDC is not enough to get a clean idle. 10+ is where you want to be as stumblin horse is running. Only reason to follow the "book" is if you have to got through emissions. Give the engine what it wants. Unfortunately, that takes a bit of work.
 
crackedback said:
Rework the distributor so you can put sufficient initial timing on the engine.

5* BTDC is not enough to get a clean idle. 10+ is where you want to be as stumblin horse is running. Only reason to follow the "book" is if you have to got through emissions. Give the engine what it wants. Unfortunately, that takes a bit of work.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Read above. I always start with at least 10° before and go from there.
 
might be running too lean , do you have the same carb and did you put good fuel in it like high test ,this time of year you are getting crap fuel winter blends don't work well with the heat.
 
teringer said:
might be running too lean , do you have the same carb and did you put good fuel in it like high test ,this time of year you are getting crap fuel winter blends don't work well with the heat.
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I’m still running the two barrel on this car so what i’ve Read I need to bump up my timing i’m Sitting at 0 right now at idle thanks for the advice
Pat
 
fuzzman said:
I’m still running the two barrel on this car so what i’ve Read I need to bump up my timing i’m Sitting at 0 right now at idle thanks for the advice
Pat
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Do you have single or dual exhaust...

It's worth it to put dual exhaust on a teen... Even with a stock 2 bbl, it will really improve performance...
 
fuzzman said:
I have a duel exhaust on it
Pat
Click to expand...

Note that post up there about your engine temp, because there's really no reason it should be pinging otherwise at zero unless there is something else wrong.
And whatever the condition is, bumping the timing up with the distributor to get your initial timing up to 10 or so will probably make that ping WAY worse because your total mechanical timing will be that much higher as well unless you mod that distributor to limit the total timing. (this is what crackedback wrote about)
 
Read what Crackedback posted (some other good ones too)

Determine if it pings when only partially warmed up

SUSPECT that the timing marks are incorrect and check them with a piston stop

CHECK for severe cam drive wear which may indicate a slipped tooth on the chain

Learn to use a timing light and plot what your advance in the distributor is actually doing. Someone may have modded it or a spring may be broken

FBO (ignition) sells an "advance limiter plate" kit that makes it fairly easy to rework timing advance.

I think AbodyJoe posted an article a long time ago:

Go down to post 28

how much initial timing mild 360 magnum

Also, I believe it's the "FBO guy" believes in "full" vacuum advance (manifold vacuum). I do not and these cars were not designed for it. They were designed for "ported" carb vacuum. When using some distributors with some carburetors, sometimes the ported vacuum comes in too much/ too fast and can cause part throttle ping.
 
Some really good advice here, especially to check the timing from TDC and the entire curve.
Assuming the original factory distributor, it has 5* ATD as the spec because the primary advance curve is very fast and long. 0* TDC is 5 degrees more and that's about the limit of what you can add to initial if the fuel allowed it.
So your chose is run it full factory, or shorten up the curve (and rework the springs when you do that or it will still be too much in the low mid range.).

Here's what the CAP vs non CAP timing curves look like for a '68.
cleaner air package
blob-png.png
 
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fuzzman said:
I have a duel exhaust on it
Pat
Click to expand...
My original post i was asking where i should set the timing at for a basic stock 318 2 barrel 904 automatic duel exhaust. I have a 67 that has a 408 stroker in it and has distributor from FBO using full engine vacuum and it runs pretty good but as far as understanding how to set up a distributor i know i will be getting in over my head. I had the 318 gone through by a mopar engine builder Mike Chenoweth speed and machine so, everything is new. He set the timing on it when he started the motor up for the first time and it is setting at 0 TDC right now, he talked about setting up the distributor but that was as far as it got. After the first long test drive i went up a hill and noticed that it pinged a little so where I'm at with this is I'm basic when it comes to tuning, so all i'm asking is do i try setting it at 10 degrees above TDC As a starting point? I have a couple of different timing lights one is a dial back and the other is a basic timing light. Like i said in one of my earlier posts the stock gauge is reading high like on the first hash mark past the middle who knows if it is reading true and, I'm running a 190 thermos stat. One question i have i can move the distributor and see if the temp goes down right? I'm really showing my basic instincts of how much engine knowledge i have which means i know just enough to get myself in trouble. Thanks for all the replies and for this group
Pat Faley
 
fuzzman said:
My original post i was asking where i should set the timing at for a basic stock 318 2 barrel 904 automatic duel exhaust. I have a 67 that has a 408 stroker in it and has distributor from FBO using full engine vacuum and it runs pretty good but as far as understanding how to set up a distributor i know i will be getting in over my head. I had the 318 gone through by a mopar engine builder Mike Chenoweth speed and machine so, everything is new. He set the timing on it when he started the motor up for the first time and it is setting at 0 TDC right now, he talked about setting up the distributor but that was as far as it got. After the first long test drive i went up a hill and noticed that it pinged a little so where I'm at with this is I'm basic when it comes to tuning, so all i'm asking is do i try setting it at 10 degrees above TDC As a starting point? I have a couple of different timing lights one is a dial back and the other is a basic timing light. Like i said in one of my earlier posts the stock gauge is reading high like on the first hash mark past the middle who knows if it is reading true and, I'm running a 190 thermos stat. One question i have i can move the distributor and see if the temp goes down right? I'm really showing my basic instincts of how much engine knowledge i have which means i know just enough to get myself in trouble. Thanks for all the replies and for this group
Pat Faley
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I think most of your questions were answered. How many of the suggestions giving did you try since your original post? Trial and error. Test and tune. No way anyone of us can spit out the "exacts" for your car. So, here is a short list:
  • Unplug the vacuum advance. What did that do (does it still ping?)
  • Advance timing about 8*. What did that do? Find top dead center on #1 cyl and see if your harmonic balancer is showing zero timing on the timing chain cover.
  • Pull the distributer and confirm the mechanical advance is working or if it's frozen. This usually adds between 18-22* of timing.
  • Is it running lean?
  • Factory manifolds?? Then check the flap on the passenger side that its not frozen shut.
Do a few of these things, and report back the results. through process of elimination, we can help (and you'll help yourself).
 
fuzzman said:
so all i'm asking is do i try setting it at 10 degrees above TDC As a starting point?
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Based on what you've written, No. But really it depends on the curve in the distributor.

Look at the timing graph I posted above. Notice the CAP distributor is set at 5* After, while the other at 5* BTC. Yet they end up at pretty much the same place by 1400 rpm. Now lets say you've got the original CAP distributor; setting the initial timing at 5*BTD at 550 rpm is 10* more than spec. This will will add 10* everywhere and it will ping under load.

One other thing to experiment with that is easy. Disconnect the vac advance hose at the distributor and stick a golf tee in the open hose. Then go for a test drive and see if the part throttle ping as gone away.

fuzzman said:
One question i have i can move the distributor and see if the temp goes down right?
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Yes. Late timing will result in more heat into the engine and exhaust. This is why the emissions control efforts are tricky.
Late 60s the focus was on HC & NOx emissions at idle, and they addressed this with leaner idle mix (14.2 AFR) and later timing - the opposite of what is best for efficiency. This makes the engine run hotter at idle than it did before. Idle stop solenoids addressed dieseling (engine run-on) and so forth.

fuzzman said:
Like i said in one of my earlier posts the stock gauge is reading high like on the first hash mark past the middle who knows if it is reading true and, I'm running a 190 thermos stat
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I beleive 190 is correct. Is the gage indicating hotter than center all the time or just at idle? At idle, a fan shroud will help the fan work pull more air through the radiator.
 
Mattax said:
Based on what you've written, No. But really it depends on the curve in the distributor.

Look at the timing graph I posted above. Notice the CAP distributor is set at 5* After, while the other at 5* BTC. Yet they end up at pretty much the same place by 1400 rpm. Now lets say you've got the original CAP distributor; setting the initial timing at 5*BTD at 550 rpm is 10* more than spec. This will will add 10* everywhere and it will ping under load.
Click to expand...

Kind of a slippery slope talking about the CAP specs. Unless his car was built in LA and still has the original distributor, let's not get side tracked. The CAP specs were just for emissions and made the cars run like crap. LOL
 
toolmanmike said:
Kind of a slippery slope talking about the CAP specs. Unless his car was built in LA and still has the original distributor, let's not get side tracked. The CAP specs were just for emissions and made the cars run like crap. LOL
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I forgot to mention i’m also Running electronic inigtion and a Mopar chrome box with a Mopar performance distributor. To answer one question it is setting at the first hash past the middle on the gauge and stays there all the time. I remember when we first started the motor up and the engine builder was setting the timing that gauge was showing a lot cooler with some of the setting he was playing with. I think the only reason he set it at zero because I told him that’s what I thought was the stock setting. So maybe I was wrong
Pat
 
toolmanmike said:
Kind of a slippery slope talking about the CAP specs. Unless his car was built in LA and still has the original distributor, let's not get side tracked. The CAP specs were just for emissions and made the cars run like crap. LOL
Click to expand...
Its not a side track. He said he's got a stock '69 318. If it has a 69 or newer distributor in it, odds are its an emissions curve.
 
Mattax said:
Its not a side track. He said he's got a stock '69 318. If it has a 69 or newer distributor in it, odds are its an emissions curve.
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But CAP was California emissions only.
 
fuzzman said:
I forgot to mention i’m also Running electronic inigtion and a Mopar chrome box with a Mopar performance distributor. To answer one question it is setting at the first hash past the middle on the gauge and stays there all the time. I remember when we first started the motor up and the engine builder was setting the timing that gauge was showing a lot cooler with some of the setting he was playing with. I think the only reason he set it at zero because I told him that’s what I thought was the stock setting. So maybe I was wrong
Pat
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That info would have been good to know from the start. Now we know what we are dealing with. No harm. Now we are on the right track.
 
fuzzman said:
I forgot to mention i’m also Running electronic inigtion and a Mopar chrome box with a Mopar performance distributor.
Click to expand...
There's two versions of the MP vac advance distributors. Neither curve is close to a stock 318. They will cause trouble at mid throttle moderate rpm. Change the springs in them and they will be OK
fuzzman said:
I think the only reason he set it at zero because I told him that’s what I thought was the stock setting. So maybe I was wrong
Pat
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Well it doesn't matter so much now knowing you have a different distributor.
 
toolmanmike said:
But CAP was California emissions only.
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By 68, it was already spreading to the other states. For example, there is no non-CAP original 340 distributor. :(
Its also a downside to the stock replacement magnetic pickup distributors. They all have curves in them for emissions.
 
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