SORRY NOT AN A BODY........STRANGE TOYOTA CAMRY ALIGNMENT NUMBERS????

[CFD244]

Hi Folks

Last November I put on the snows......No strange wear patterns. We put about 2000 miles. Fast forward to today, upon removing them I found the inner edges of the front tires literally destroyed. I slapped a string line on them parallel to the rear rims and found that I had 3/8 inch toe out over a 14 inch rim.

Back story.......I did front wheel bearings and lower ball joints the summer before and put about 4000 miles on new tires and saw no wear issues on the summer tires.

Looked under the vehicle while my wife worked the steering wheel back and forth and found no unusual slop in the tie rods. The steering wheel feels great.

Any suggestions as to how things got this out of shape? We live in the country and the roads are not the best in the winter/spring......But to knock it out that much????

Thanks for any input or suggestions.

 

[Kendog 170]

Anyone borrow it and hit a curb? I know my wife wouldn't tell me if she did.

 

[Syleng1]

Weight and tire pressure comes to mind, then comes something else worn or was left loose after last repairs.
Without actually putting my hands and eyes on it, I’m just taking an educated guess.

 

[Dubob]

Off the cuff I’d look at the strut bearings. That’s just a guess.

 

[RustyRatRod]

You must have a way to allow the tires to slip on the floor to simulate alignment turn plates, or the measurements could be off.

 

[MV8]

I think your string toe method may differ from mine. What makes you think the rear suspension is right enough to use a reference for the front? Rear on a fwd has bushings and is usually adjustable too.

Inner edge wear is excess camber. Excess toe causes feathering across all the the tread lumps, like little ramps all facing the same direction.

Fwd sometimes have the axle center line offset forward and even if it isn't offset on this car, will toe-in with traction, eliminating all the slack in the bushings and joints.

Alignment of the rear toe parallel to the rockers, would be a good place to start if the bushings and joints are not worn too much but it sounds like too much camber on the front (tilted toward the center of the car at the top of the tire).

 

[CFD244]

I think your string toe method may differ from mine. What makes you think the rear suspension is right enough to use a reference for the front? Rear on a fwd has bushings and is usually adjustable too.

Inner edge wear is excess camber. Excess toe causes feathering across all the the tread lumps, like little ramps all facing the same direction.

Fwd sometimes have the axle center line offset forward and even if it isn't offset on this car, will toe-in with traction, eliminating all the slack in the bushings and joints.

Alignment of the rear toe parallel to the rockers, would be a good place to start if the bushings and joints are not worn too much but it sounds like too much camber on the front (tilted toward the center of the car at the top of the tire).

I initially thought that as well. I would think that I could tell that the camber was insanely negative enough to cause this type of damage in 2000 miles just by looking at it. I can see 1/2 degree negative camber on my Demon.

I could also see that the toe was way out as well when I started looking.

Using my method (which hopefully will get me to an alignment shop to confirm with out any tire damage) (and I agree that it is taking a lot for granted with regards to the rear wheels as a reference point) to get it set right. I am just trying to ascertain what happened in the last 2000 miles to cause this. Like I said, the roads are super shitty around here, but for the most part I am very gentle when I drive, but I can't miss them all.

I don't hear any clunks, creeks or groans and everything appears tight.

Here are a couple of pics. One set is what they looked like 2000 miles ago, and the other set are what I took off the front today. The tread feels sharp as I move my hand towards the worn section on the shitty set.

 

[72bluNblu]

You must have a way to allow the tires to slip on the floor to simulate alignment turn plates, or the measurements could be off.

Only if you’re making changes or trying to measure caster. If you’re just measuring the toe and camber you can do that just parked on a level surface and long as your wheels are straight before you park and you don’t load/unload the car too much. It won’t be perfect but it should be in the ballpark.

Now, you can’t make any adjustments and expect to see those changes reflected accurately unless you roll the wheels or are sitting on turn/slip plates. And you can’t get an accurate caster measurement because that involves turning the wheels.

I initially thought that as well. I would think that I could tell that the camber was insanely negative enough to cause this type of damage in 2000 miles just by looking at it. I can see 1/2 degree negative camber on my Demon.

I could also see that the toe was way out as well when I started looking.

Using my method (which hopefully will get me to an alignment shop to confirm with out any tire damage) (and I agree that it is taking a lot for granted with regards to the rear wheels as a reference point) to get it set right. I am just trying to ascertain what happened in the last 2000 miles to cause this. Like I said, the roads are super shitty around here, but for the most part I am very gentle when I drive, but I can't miss them all.

I don't hear any clunks, creeks or groans and everything appears tight.

3/8” toe out is a TON. That will wipe out the inside edge of the tires very quickly.

I run over -1° of camber and don’t see any significant camber wear over the life of my tires. To wipe out the inner edge in 2k miles you’d need a LOT of negative camber, it would be easily visible. Like it would look broken.

If the toe out measurement is accurate that means your toe changed by more than 3/8” somewhere in that 2000 miles. I’d get that thing in the air and make sure nothing is bent, broken or loose before driving it anywhere.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Only if you’re making changes or trying to measure caster. If you’re just measuring the toe and camber you can do that just parked on a level surface and long as your wheels are straight before you park and you don’t load/unload the car too much. It won’t be perfect but it should be in the ballpark.

Now, you can’t make any adjustments and expect to see those changes reflected accurately unless you roll the wheels or are sitting on turn/slip plates. And you can’t get an accurate caster measurement because that involves turning the wheels.




3/8” toe out is a TON. That will wipe out the inside edge of the tires very quickly.

I run over -1° of camber and don’t see any significant camber wear over the life of my tires. To wipe out the inner edge in 2k miles you’d need a LOT of negative camber, it would be easily visible. Like it would look broken.

If the toe out measurement is accurate that means your toe changed by more than 3/8” somewhere in that 2000 miles. I’d get that thing in the air and make sure nothing is bent, broken or loose before driving it anywhere.

My thoughts were if he pulled into the shop on the floor where it is with the tires turned for example and then straightened them up. If he really wanted it accurate, he'd need to get the tires in the correct jounce position.....at least I would want to.

 

[72bluNblu]

My thoughts were if he pulled into the shop on the floor where it is with the tires turned for example and then straightened them up. If he really wanted it accurate, he'd need to get the tires in the correct jounce position.....at least I would want to.

Yup, that wouldn’t work. If you wanted a good measurement without turn or slip plates you’d have to pull it straight in, not make any changes, and measure it just like that.

Wouldn’t be perfect but if you’re 3/8” out on the toe measuring that way it would definitely indicate an issue.

 

[MV8]

I initially thought that as well. I would think that I could tell that the camber was insanely negative enough to cause this type of damage in 2000 miles just by looking at it. I can see 1/2 degree negative camber on my Demon.

I could also see that the toe was way out as well when I started looking.

Using my method (which hopefully will get me to an alignment shop to confirm with out any tire damage) (and I agree that it is taking a lot for granted with regards to the rear wheels as a reference point) to get it set right. I am just trying to ascertain what happened in the last 2000 miles to cause this. Like I said, the roads are super shitty around here, but for the most part I am very gentle when I drive, but I can't miss them all.

I don't hear any clunks, creeks or groans and everything appears tight.

Here are a couple of pics. One set is what they looked like 2000 miles ago, and the other set are what I took off the front today. The tread feels sharp as I move my hand towards the worn section on the shitty set.

View attachment 1716395714

View attachment 1716395715

Echoing 72BluNBlu. Looks like a combination of toe and camber.
I'd run a string taught on two jack stands down one side, parallel (with a tape measure) to the door/rocker about a foot high and as close to the tire bulges as possible, and look at both the front and rear on each side with the steering wheel centered. I'm guessing you can get another gentle, slow 50 miles before the cords show. If you are not sure you will make it, move the rears forward, same side and plan on getting a set.

 

[AJ/FormS]

When you installed the winter tires, were they mounted on the same wheels, or on identical wheels as, the car was formerly aligned on/with?

Imagine a line in front or rear view, running thru the center of the LBJ, and the Inboard pivot of the LCA, on either side of the car.
When that line is parallel to the ground, the line will be the longest.
If you raise the ride-height mechanically to run that way, the inboard pivot will rise, and pull the LBJ towards the centerline of the car.
Let's say you align the car to run that ride-height. As long as you are driving straight ahead, it will be just fine.
However, anytime the LCAs are not at the same angle as when the car was last aligned, the camber will change.
So say something happened and now that imaginary line is dead level. This has pushed the LBJ outward, and angled the top of the tire in, and put the road-pressure on the inboard edge.
>When the camber is changed, this ALWAYS changes the Toe-in, and so, in this new position, the toe-in is increased, which now points the laden edges towards eachother. So now you have two reasons whereby the alignment is burning off the inboard edges.
> at the new changed ride-height, the caster is also changed, but caster alone won't burn the tires off. However, if you changed your wheels to a different offset or SAI, and did NOT align the the car with the different winter wheels, well who knows what can happen.........
>Taller tires will also change the Scrub radius
>wheels with a different offset or more specifically a different backspace, will also mess with the scrub radius. Add that to the other problems.

So what happened to change that imaginary line, between the time the car was last aligned and today?

Somebody mentioned Strut bearings.
Some to many cars cannot change the alignment at the top of the struts. Therefore, to change camber, we have to loosen the strut from the lower spindle carrier, and thru the bagginess of the bolt-tunnels, it is sometimes enough to fix a camber problem. Or, you can install different bolts. The thing is this; if you do that and don't torque the bolts enough, or if for whatever reason the parts slip, well there you go.
I used to do that all the time but when I did, I drilled a little alignment hole to be a tell-tale, so that if I had a come back, that drilled hole would tell the story. Well, I never had a come-back in six years......... due to slipped pinchbolts.
> and finally, check your wheel-bearings.
A lot of newer cars have those cartridge-type of wheel bearings in the which they are non-adjustable. So when the bearing wears out, the entire rotating assembly gets loose, and the Front-Wheel Drive System will, under power, toe the wheels in.

 

[CFD244]

Thanks for the input everyone. I am planning on taking it to a shop to have it checked and set. My cursory checks showed that everything appears tight and not bent. After correcting the toe out, the car handles fine with no noises or handling anomalies. Car tracks dead straight on the pavement with zero steering wheel input.

The only thing that this car was ever exposed to are the shitty roads here in Northern Ontario. The tires are 10 years old and the car has never had an alignment in the 20 years that I have owned it.......I have never seen wear like this from this vehicle the whole time I have owned it or it would have gotten an alignment check.

Thanks FABO

 

[CFD244]

So......In the shop today. Tech found no mechanical issues whatsoever so he set it up for alignment. Camber and caster were spot on as were the rear measurements. After my crude measurement/adjustment technique, a little more toe in than spec. was recorded. He adjusted the toe and the car handles great. Will keep a closer eye on the tires of all my vehicles from now on. Just glad that I am safe.

Thanks FABO

 

[1MeanA]

I had some 10 year old tires that wore out in a couple of thousand miles. I had the car inspected in Arizona and then drove it home. It was down to the cords by the time I got home. I'm cautious about running old tires now.