Intermediate Cranking

[carfreak6970]

I been have an issue that I would like some help with. The car is a 68 Dodge Dart with a slant six that I had on the road since 2008, I put about 40,000 miles on it. It has been a fairly reliable car. Last week I go to start it and it does not start. The oil like comes on and kind of dims/flashed when I turned the key from on to start. With the key in the on position I jump the starter relay at the battery and solenoid terminals and it starts right up. I did the same thing after the gym to get to work that day. However, after work I went to start it with the key again and everything seemed fine. So instead of replacing parts I figured I would see if I could jump it from the signal side of the relay or ground it from the ground side to see if the problem was either in the ignition switch side or neutral start switch side when this issue would come about again. I drove the car every day last week.

Well I had the same issue this morning. So I removed the ignition switch wiring from the relay and jumped it with the positive post on the battery. It cranked over, but I forgot to have the key in the on position. So I reconnect the wire on the relay and try to start it with the key and she fires right up!

Now I am about 99% sure the car has its original wiring and ignition switch, but I am not to sure if I replaced the neutral start switch or the starter relay before. I do not have the maintenance log with me at work. Now I know electrical issues can come and go as they please, but when I checked the wiring out it appears to be in as good of shape as it can be for that age. Meaning no split insulation, frayed terminals etc.

So does this sound more like a relay issue? or an ignition switch issue? I have a spare relay in the box sitting on the shelf, should I just stop this foolishness, replace the relay and see what happens?

 

[toolmanmike]

So it's a cranking issue. (I would edit your title) It sounds like you may have a bad connection going through the bulkhead connector. When it acts up, sometimes you can wiggle the wires going into the bulkhead connector and it will crank. Take the connector apart to check it for corrosion or damage.

 

[Kendog 170]

Did you jiggle shifter in park or try nuetral when trying to crank?

 

[Kendog 170]

Can't hurt to try the relay if you have one.

 

[carfreak6970]

So it's a cranking issue. (I would edit your title) It sounds like you may have a bad connection going through the bulkhead connector. When it acts up, sometimes you can wiggle the wires going into the bulkhead connector and it will crank. Take the connector apart to check it for corrosion or damage.

I can try to do that

Did you jiggle shifter in park or try nuetral when trying to crank?

yes I did, but nothing changed. I can try again

 

[Inertia]

There is a condition on the old big starters where an electrical contact inside the starter wears out, and can cause an issue like yours.
Klik, klik, klik, - zoom kinda thing
Mopar used to offer a " stud and contact " package to replace them.
Very much like the contacts and washer replacement in the newer Denso starters.
Worn-down armature brushes can also cause the intermittent thing, that's where tapping the starter jiggles the brushes into better contact with the commutator on the armature, then turning the key works till it needs another tap.

Good luck.

 

[67Dart273]

Intermittents are hard, there is no easy answer

But you can help yourself a bit, if you can haywire a temporary 12V pilot lamp. "Rig" it first from ground to the yellow start terminal at the relay, everything connected normally. You can buy "piggyback" terminals for that

similar to these:

If it fails to crank but the lamp lights, suspect the relay, but still could be the neutral switch

Now move the lamp to the neutral start terminal. If it fails to crank and the lamp lights, that indicates the neutral switch is not grounding for some reason.

 

[Bewy]

With the problem described in post #6, you would still get a 'click' sound from the solenoid operating.
It could be n/switch, relay or wiring.
[1] Relay is easy to access, so I would try replacing that first.
[2] Problem remains. Piggy back a 4 ft length of wire onto the n/switch terminal. Strip 1/4" insulation off the other end of the cable & insulate it. Next time it happens, grd the bare wire. If it starts faulty sw.

 

[RedFish]

The NSS only provides a ground when shifter is at P or N on the brown wire. Place a temporary fixed ground wire to the relay and go (know that starter will work in drive/reverse during this condition). If the intemitant fault is gone, the NSS is the fault. If fault persists, on to the yellow relay signal wire from the key switch. Rig up a test lamp to show you when hot, when not, at the relay, under the column, etc...

 

[carfreak6970]

So I believe I have found the issue with this. I have been driving it pretty consistently over the past two weeks and this morning it didnt crank. So I twisted the key back to the off position, wiggled it a bit, then twisted it to start and it cranked over. I am pretty sure this points to the ignition switch being the issue.

Now for the better question, is there an outfit out there that rebuilds ignition switches? I am thinking maybe Instrument Specialties. Does anyone have any experience with having these switches rebuilt?

 

[Mattax]

The oil like comes on and kind of dims/flashed when I turned the key from on to start.

Oil like is tied to the ignition run terminal. So that is normal

With the key in the on position I jump the starter relay at the battery and solenoid terminals and it starts right up.

However, after work I went to start it with the key again and everything seemed fine. So instead of replacing parts I figured I would see if I could jump it from the signal side of the relay or ground it from the ground side to see if the problem was either in the ignition switch side or neutral start switch side when this issue would come about again. I drove the car every day last week.

^^^This is the way to find the answer to your question^^^
If you make up a little jumper you can do this with little fuss when it happens.

So does this sound more like a relay issue? or an ignition switch issue? I have a spare relay in the box sitting on the shelf, should I just stop this foolishness, replace the relay and see what happens?

Your analysis is as good as it gets.
Doesn't seem to be starter since it worked when the battery power was jumpered to the solenoid.
Could be the relay, a wire to the relay, or as you mention in your last post, the ignition switch.

Now for the better question, is there an outfit out there that rebuilds ignition switches? I am thinking maybe Instrument Specialties. Does anyone have any experience with having these switches rebuilt?

Maybe. There's a switch rebuilder that Toolman had made a sticky thread.

The '68 key switch can be replaced cheap enough and then you can see about a rebuild and continue driving.

 

[Mattax]

You could remove the connector and clip a multimeter lead to the BAT terminal, and the other lead to the ST terminal. Turn the key to start and jiggle it. The meter should read zero resistance. If not then the switch is faulty.

'67 but I beleive '68 is very similar

Remove the key cylinder. IIRC the little pin to depress is to remove the cylinder. No need to
take the cylinder apart unless you have to.

There was an option for a lamp in the bezel in '68. I don't know if that will need to be removed first.

On my car the original wiring and connector were in very good condition except the accessory feed. That probably had been damaged by the power needed for under dash A/C that was on the car from around 1970 to 1990.

Expect yours will be fine but always worth inspecting.