Blue Print Hemi

[Big Dee]

I have a 73 Duster with a 340 / 727 / 3.91 Its been sitting for a long time and I would love to get it back on the road. I love all the projects you guys are building and would love to have a modern Hemi, or the 408. The 340 is ok but not making power like these crate motors.
The main question I have is did anyone install one of these Hemis yet. I looked but cannot find.

The crate Hemi is expensive but once I start adding the cost of building a junk yard motor of factory crate. The warranty and reliability it kinda makes sense.

What is the preferred mounting system? Headers

Thanks everyone

 

[dano]

A 340 with a 4" crank is a 416 and can probably keep up with a few engines and probably be cheaper than a new Hemi swap.

 

[Big Dee]

I can't find anyone who has the Blue Print Hemi running in a car.
Ive gone through pages and pages of builds and swaps

A while ago someone did a breakdown on total swap cost ill have to look for that again

 

[Big Dee]

A 340 with a 4" crank is a 416 and can probably keep up with a few engines and probably be cheaper than a new Hemi swap.

I've thought of that route as well. By the time I add heads, crank, Rods, pistons cam and machine work I'm probably close to the price of the 408 crate that is built by pros.
Maybe I can sell off the 340 for someone that needs it

 

[abodyjoe]

The crate Hemi is expensive but once I start adding the cost of building a junk yard motor of factory crate. The warranty and reliability it kinda makes sense

the crate engine is just the start. fuel system sure isn't cheap. proper computer set up for it isn't cheap either. there alot to sticking a modern hemi into One of these cars. sure they can run great.

you could stroke the 340 and reuse a ton of stuff already on the car. probably be cheaper in the long run if thats a consideration. if money is no object then go for the modern hemi crate.

 

[dano]

I've thought of that route as well. By the time I add heads, crank, Rods, pistons cam and machine work I'm probably close to the price of the 408 crate that is built by pros.
Maybe I can sell off the 340 for someone that needs it

That I can't argue with that especially if you live in a large urban area and shop costs are high. If my 340 ate it, I'd probably go that rout too.

Is your 340 original to your car? If so, I'd keep it.

 

[Big Dee]

Car was a 318 car. I put the 340 in it 35 years ago. I got the car in high school and would like to make it fun again.
we get spoiled with modern cars. mini vans are in the 14's and get 25mpg with a/c
I want fast, reliable, drive anywhere, so I probably have to break the piggy bank open

 

[66Dartdriver]

You say the car has been sitting a long so what are your goals here. Get it back on the road quick then get your 340 going. Next choice is pull the 340 drop a 408 blueprint already built. This may be your quickest route or take it all apart and put in a Hemi? Realistically with this choice you are going to be a while depending on how deep your pockets are and your skill level until this car gets back on the road.

 

[DionR]

I'm not aware of anyone that has run a BP motor in their swap. But I don't see that it makes much difference where the motor came from, the swap is functionally the same.

No idea what the preferred setup is, I only know which one I like. But I will try an condense some thoughts.

Generally, the parts that conflict in a G3 swap are an OEM PS steering box, oil filter, alternator on a car TC cover (which BP uses), SRV module if you run a 6.4 intake and the low mount AC (if it matters). The BP intake doesn't have a SRV module so I will ignore that from here on and if you don't care about AC, the only issues is the alternator and the steering box. Also, the steering column tube has to be cut back.

On a torsion bar suspension the fix for the steering box is a Borgeson or manual box.

You have the right k-frame already in your car to use the Holley mounts and headers. But...those move the motor forward so your stock trans mount no longer works, along with some other issues. That option means you could run the low mount AC and the oil filter doesn't need a remote setup. Holley does sell trans mounts for this swap. And if you were going to swap in a modern trans at the same time it's kind of a mute point.

The other option for your k-frame is TTI mounts. Those keep the motor in the stock location, and TTI sells headers that fit. So that would be a bolt in, with the only real headache being the remote oil filter and the alternator. If you don't want AC.

There are also mounts for the biscuit '72 and older k-frame. Only real advantage there is to use a /6 k-frame because those have more room for the oil filter.

The final, big option is a coil over conversion that frees up all kinds of room for the swap, but at the cost more money. Not a perfect solution as my brother used a Control Freaks kit and had a struggle to get an oil pan that works, which he did. I know of a guy on here with a Alter-k-tion that had to relocate his rack mounts to fit his Hellcat motor in. So still stuff to look at on those. But they do make headers easier.

In your case, if you were planning to keep the 727, I would use the TTI mounts and headers. Notch your frame rail for the alternator and cut your steering column tube back and swap steering boxes (if needed) and it would bolt in.

It's a fairly complex swap.

Like Joe said, there is also still the issue of coolant, fuel and the computer controls.

 

[dano]

Car was a 318 car. I put the 340 in it 35 years ago. I got the car in high school and would like to make it fun again.
we get spoiled with modern cars. mini vans are in the 14's and get 25mpg with a/c
I want fast, reliable, drive anywhere, so I probably have to break the piggy bank open

Might have to open a few piggys! I feel the same way about some newer cars, but I can work on the GTS, new stuff gets overly complicated and needs "dealer tools" that just are not worth the cost for the home DIY guy.

Lots of guys with 408's, modern hemi's and more here. Set your honest goals and budget up front, the slope gets slippery fast and don't forget brakes, suspension, fuel system, trans/converter.

 

[DionR]

Just to follow up, the AC compressor mount is custom for the TTI mounts. The DS mount use the same bosses so you have to do something different. There are a couple of guys that have made it work, so not impossible.

Holley does have a full FEAD kit that moves the AC compressor and alternator up, but it's a pretty penny.

 

[DionR]

proper computer set up for it isn't cheap either.

Looks like the fully dressed BP engines with EFI come with a Holley Terminator setup included. So that part might kind of be taken care of.

And it looks like they have a FEAD setup that probably side steps the issues of making the alternator and AC compressor fit.

 

[Big Dee]

I'm not aware of anyone that has run a BP motor in their swap. But I don't see that it makes much difference where the motor came from, the swap is functionally the same.

No idea what the preferred setup is, I only know which one I like. But I will try an condense some thoughts.

Generally, the parts that conflict in a G3 swap are an OEM PS steering box, oil filter, alternator on a car TC cover (which BP uses), SRV module if you run a 6.4 intake and the low mount AC (if it matters). The BP intake doesn't have a SRV module so I will ignore that from here on and if you don't care about AC, the only issues is the alternator and the steering box. Also, the steering column tube has to be cut back.

On a torsion bar suspension the fix for the steering box is a Borgeson or manual box.

You have the right k-frame already in your car to use the Holley mounts and headers. But...those move the motor forward so your stock trans mount no longer works, along with some other issues. That option means you could run the low mount AC and the oil filter doesn't need a remote setup. Holley does sell trans mounts for this swap. And if you were going to swap in a modern trans at the same time it's kind of a mute point.

The other option for your k-frame is TTI mounts. Those keep the motor in the stock location, and TTI sells headers that fit. So that would be a bolt in, with the only real headache being the remote oil filter and the alternator. If you don't want AC.

There are also mounts for the biscuit '72 and older k-frame. Only real advantage there is to use a /6 k-frame because those have more room for the oil filter.

The final, big option is a coil over conversion that frees up all kinds of room for the swap, but at the cost more money. Not a perfect solution as my brother used a Control Freaks kit and had a struggle to get an oil pan that works, which he did. I know of a guy on here with a Alter-k-tion that had to relocate his rack mounts to fit his Hellcat motor in. So still stuff to look at on those. But they do make headers easier.

In your case, if you were planning to keep the 727, I would use the TTI mounts and headers. Notch your frame rail for the alternator and cut your steering column tube back and swap steering boxes (if needed) and it would bolt in.

It's a fairly complex swap.

Like Joe said, there is also still the issue of coolant, fuel and the computer controls.

Thanks for summing it up. the blue print comes with a computer as far as I know, I have to replace fuel tank and will get one that has provisions for internal pump. Not sure if the Crate set up accessories fit in an A body. Maybe I can be a test car. LOL

Time to start making a chart with cost of building 340, vs 408 vs Hemi
Thanks for all the input. much appreciated

 

[dano]

Thanks for summing it up. the blue print comes with a computer as far as I know, I have to replace fuel tank and will get one that has provisions for internal pump. Not sure if the Crate set up accessories fit in an A body. Maybe I can be a test car. LOL

Time to start making a chart with cost of building 340, vs 408 vs Hemi
Thanks for all the input. much appreciated

There might be a drop in pump for the stock tank. There are for the Sniper (I have one) but they are internally regulated. May be able to bypass the regulator for more pressure.

 

[DionR]

Car was a 318 car. I put the 340 in it 35 years ago. I got the car in high school and would like to make it fun again.
we get spoiled with modern cars. mini vans are in the 14's and get 25mpg with a/c
I want fast, reliable, drive anywhere, so I probably have to break the piggy bank open

Just my opinion, but the single biggest reason new cars are like that is overdrive and EFI. A BP engine with their EFI intake and the Holley PCM is a good part of that, but I would want OD as well. Nothing worse than buzzing at 3K and still having to stick to the slow lane.

My G3 swap includes a T56 and I expect to cruise at 1500 rpm at 65 mph just like my '15 Challenger R/T used to.

 

[jbc426]

Don't forget about the venerable 5.9 Magnum stroked to 408". They come with roller cams and EFI, but the modern Holley stuff is amazing. Throw on a power adder and they really wake up.

Selecting an overdrive transmission leaves you looking at some of the Mopar choices, but there are a lot of other choices out there that can work well and have bolt-on bell housing options to fit them in. There is some cross member modification needed with both, but the rest of the suspension can be retained and improved with bolt on parts.

The guy who said, "Speed cost money, how fast do you want to go." wasn't lying. I've had one of my cars for 47 years and the other one for nearly 20. Both have EFI & overdrives in them, which makes them drivable from state to state. Even though I've made them both much faster, more reliable, better handling and better at stopping, they still have been cheaper than buying new cars that aren't as fast, exciting or beautiful. I've never had a car payment on either one, but I do spend my money on them from time to time.

 

[67Dart273]

Selecting an overdrive transmission leaves you looking at some of the Mopar choices, but there are a lot of other choices out there that can work well and have bolt-on bell housing options to fit them in.

A "lot" of other options? Like what, please. Do tell.

 

[Dart Frog]

There's also the third option of going big block. It would be a lot easier than a gen3 conversion you could sell the 340 get a 383 or 400 stroke it, stick aluminum heads and manifold on it now you're at the same weight as a small block. And actually I don't think they're any more expensive to build maybe a little cheaper.

 

[junkyardhero]

stroking the 340 is probably the most cost effective approach in that you have most all of the supporting cast in place already. a blueprint stroker is the easy button but comes at a cost; but again, you've got the peripherals in place so there's some value there. benefit with the blueprint route is timeline. put in cart, press buy, melt a credit card and it shows up with the promptness.

i think the G3 path is the hardest of the three. while you can make beaucoup power and still have a semblance of fuel economy while maintaining civility there's a lot more to it than the big expensive parts. the complexities of the install aren't insurmountable but do present unique multifaceted challenges in that you may find yourself needing to farm out or modify/fabricate much more than anticipated.

to me the biggest hiccup in the G3 swap is all of the additional pieces to bring it together and the consideration of an OD transmission. again, it's all very doable stuff, but it's just so much more money in one go.

 

[Professor Fate]

stick aluminum heads and manifold on it now you're at the same weight as a small block. And actually I don't think they're any more expensive to build maybe a little cheaper.

No offense, but I wish people would stop saying that... Heck, build the BB with a Donovan aluminum block and you'll be really light. Light in the wallet, too.
You can throw aluminum heads and manifold on the small block you already have and be light as a slant six, too.
Modified bb vs. factory sb weights? Apples and oranges. Compare them with the same mods.

 

[jbc426]

A "lot" of other options? Like what, please. Do tell.

I've run an Extreme Automatics Stage 2 2004R with a Precision of New Hampton 3800 stall, 3 carbon fiber clutch converter bolted to my previous 480hp 408 Magnum. I've since pulled that combo and put it in a 1957 Dodge D100 Truck with a shortened and boxed 1994 Dakota chassis. It is the best performing transmission Ive ever driven, and the gear ratios are nearly perfect, and it performs like a 5 speed with a 350 rpm drop while cruising when the lock-up is engaged. High quality, modern converters are very efficient these days, and the lock-up clutches are very stout.

I'm almost finished upgrading a replacement engine for the car the above came out of, and I opted for a 6-planet, re-geared and beefed up 4L60 from Performabuilt Transmissions with a 3400 rpm stall, 3 carbon fiber clutch lock-up converter from Precision of New Hampton. The gearing after the 6-planetary gear set is almost identical to the 2004R, and this transmission is computer controller through the Holley Terminator Max ECM. Shift points, firmness and converter lock-up and other things are adjustable on the fly with the hand held screen or more in depth adjustments can be made using a laptop.

This transmission got a bad rep, largely because of the 3.06 first gear and the huge drop into the 1.63 second gear along with some other hard parts shortcomings. The much stronger 6 planet gearset changes that to 2.84 first and 1.55 second gear ratio. Once these issues are addressed, they can reliably hole over 1000+hp. I'm only putting 820 through it, so fingers crossed. The 4L60's are only slightly longer than the 2004R, and are mechanically more efficient than the Mopar design. That means more power to the wheels. You can move up to a stronger 4L80, but cutting the floor becomes an issue as does the larger parasitic power loss through that transmission.

Installing both the 2004R and the 4L60 transmissions didn't require cutting the floor to fit them. I did have to make a mount and trim & reinforce my torsion bar cross-member.

Both transmissions used bolt on SFI rated bellhousings to adapt them to my Magnum, but they will also bolt up to a Gen 3 Hemi. I see the bellhousings as much cleaner and more compact than using an adapter plate. They also make bellhousing adapters for big blocks and Gen 2 Hemi's. The 6L80's and 6L90's can be fit as well, but they are even bigger and have higher parasitic drag. Heck, the Mopar 8 speeds can be bolted up as well. All these are really stout, especially when beefed up.

Aside from braking, handling and subframe connectors, overdrive and EFI have proven to be the greatest improvements I've made to these cars.

Building the Ultimate 4L60E with Better Gear Ratios

As we marched into the era of electronically controlled transmissions, the debate was no different in the olden days when trying to decide between a Turbo 350 a

www.motortrend.com

 

[DionR]

... consideration of an OD transmission.

To me, I don't care what motor you run, I think an OD is a must. I run an A833OD behind my hybrid LA with a carb for that very reason. Makes my half hour drives into the "big" town a much more enjoyable drive. There are certainly limits and I wouldn't try and run a carb and decent motor down to 1500 rpm on the highway, but the close ratio T56 and even deeper gears than I plan works plenty well.

I agree that the GM trans are great options, even more so due to the limited surgery required.

At the same time, I think the 8HP is the absolute best option available. Cost wise, I bet they can't be beat as they are plenty stout so they don't need beefing up (depending on the motor) and even with a SGE controller they have to be cheaper than a TKX box by itself. And they don't need an aftermarket bellhousing and clutch, just a flexplate to bolt up to an LA or G3. But they require surgery just like a T56/TKX/TKO, etc. As a plus, you can run rear gears most people are giving away because first is so deep.

Guy on here is running an 8HP behind a carbed LA and absolutely loves it.

 

[Murray]

There is a 426 SBM.

 

[Big Dee]

I agree with the idea of overdrive transmission and fuel injection. it makes the car more drivable than anything else probably
Lots to think about, I appreciate all the input

 

[Robzilla]

I have purchased the complete 426 hemi set-up from Blueprint (engine management, fuel injection and accessories). It's going into a 71 Demon with a 4L80E behind it. The Demon will have the new Hammerfab A-body Street Connection suspension. The car is at my buddies shop, he's the builder for this! Im going to start a thread on the build when he starts the suspension instal.