4.00" cranks and windage trays...??

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This is 4.00" crank 340 with SCAT I beams and a Milodon 9 quart "super stock" pan (with the drag link tube)...

The sides of the MP tray hit everywhere, but I think we'll just run 7 or 8 qts and leave it off.

Much as been published about the proper clearance not maintained and windage actually CREATED, but I though I'd take a real world poll.

There's nothing wrong with MP Purple cams, AAR. In fact, I have a .620 (that was in the motor as a 340) for sale if you want it...

Thanks all!
 
dusterdoug said:
Well, no motor NEEDS a tray, just wondering what fits as the MP tray sure doesn't with a 4.00" crank.

That said, I was hoping someone (Brian??) had dyno compared or at least time slip compared with and without...
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No need to. If you run a shallow pan you will need a windage tray...that's why the factory performance engines came with them.
With a deeper pan it's not neccessary and can work against you buy pooling the oil on the tray and then it gets sucked back up onto the crank.
It's a small amount but it will soak up about 10HP. But that's better than 40-50 HP you'll lose if you suck up the entire pan's worth of oil!
I just run a 7qt. pan and use 7qt.'s of oil so the oil level will be slightly lower than normal.
 
ou812 said:
No need to. If you run a shallow pan you will need a windage tray...that's why the factory performance engines came with them.
With a deeper pan it's not neccessary and can work against you buy pooling the oil on the tray and then it gets sucked back up onto the crank.
It's a small amount but it will soak up about 10HP. But that's better than 40-50 HP you'll lose if you suck up the entire pan's worth of oil!
I just run a 7qt. pan and use 7qt.'s of oil so the oil level will be slightly lower than normal.
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Thanks Brian, I agree.

On a related note, has anyone read the oiling section of the "How to Build a Big Inch Mopar" book? The auther claims a dyno test was done on a 360, with the MP tray and the 360 LOST 40 HP with it in place. The theory was the MP tray was designed for the 3.31 stroke cranks and the 3.58 crank was so close to it, it CREATED windage...interesting.

On a SEMI-related note, CONGRATS Brian on the CC article. I'll be one of the emailers asking for a part 2. GREAT JOB!
 
Koruliss has a 340 resto block and he didn't have issues with his stuff. I'm wonder what he and everybody else has on there cranks swinging around. I noticed some rod have very beefy and big ends on the crank where others do not. Hence clearance issues with blocks with some combos.

Not knowing which rods have bigger ends than others, .................

I'm not sure about the 340/360 tray issue, something aint ringing right there....about the mains.....

The one thing I do with the trays is open up the baffles alot to allow the oil to run out ASAP! I really don't see a .27 in stroke being a killer of a difference though.
 
rumblefish360 said:
Koruliss has a 340 resto block and he didn't have issues with his stuff. I'm wonder what he and everybody else has on there cranks swinging around. I noticed some rod have very beefy and big ends on the crank where others do not. Hence clearance issues with blocks with some combos.

Not knowing which rods have bigger ends than others, .................

I'm not sure about the 340/360 tray issue, something aint ringing right there....about the mains.....

The one thing I do with the trays is open up the baffles alot to allow the oil to run out ASAP! I really don't see a .27 in stroke being a killer of a difference though.
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Thanks for the input Rumble. Mine was just a thought. Must be something to do with different rods and/or crank used in a stroker. I'd almost bet one would clear on my 408 as the Eagle crank and SCAT rods are pretty slim line. Not planning on using one though since I have a Kevco pan.
 
Those look like a preety nice pan. How deep is it at the rear? Ground clearance issue for the street?
 
Just got off the phone with the gentleman that assembles my engines..he did not I REPEAT DID NOT have to modify the windage tray to clear the 4" stroke,i went with ARP main studs and he had to use spacers only NO MODIFICATION OF THE TRAY WERE DONE!!!..as far as using a windage tray with a deep pan its a personal preference my assembler recommends them..do what you want its your motor,but to the people who say you need to modify it time to get a new builder or take it to someone who knows what they're doing...:read2::read2::read2:
 
fishy68 said:
I'm wondering if the difference with some windage tray's clearing for some guys and not for others is due to some using the 318/340 blocks with narrower main caps and others using the 360 block with wider main caps. Seems as the 360 with the wider main caps would put the windage tray out away from the crank more. I haven't tested this. Just a thought.
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340/360 have the same main caps, the one I have at least...

it's the 318 that has the shorter caps.

The milodon windage tray that I have, in order to get it close to the crank, had to be ground here and there to clear the rods w/4'' crank and h beams.
I'm sure guys just can bolt it on w/4'' setup but it may be doing nothing hanging there 3'' away from the crank/rods...
I have not tried the stock windage tray yet on a 4''

I wonder what guys who say it drops right on and those who say it doesn't are running for fasteners and rods?
 
stroked 340 said:
Just got off the phone with the gentleman that assembles my engines..he did not I REPEAT DID NOT have to modify the windage tray to clear the 4" stroke,i went with ARP main studs and he had to use spacers only NO MODIFICATION OF THE TRAY WERE DONE!!!..as far as using a windage tray with a deep pan its a personal preference my assembler recommends them..do what you want its your motor,but to the people who say you need to modify it time to get a new builder or take it to someone who knows what they're doing...:read2::read2::read2:
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Your statement is absolutely ridiculous! You need to assemble one yourself and then you will know for sure........YOUR builder sounds like he is FULL OF **** to me! You absolutely don't know WTF was done to your engine unless you put it together yourself PERIOD! My last statement is based on EXPERIENCE not just BS!
 
Mad Dart said:
Your statement is absolutely ridiculous! You need to assemble one yourself and then you will know for sure........YOUR builder sounds like he is FULL OF **** to me! You absolutely don't know WTF was done to your engine unless you put it together yourself PERIOD! My last statement is based on EXPERIENCE not just BS!
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ditto.
 
OK, calm down Mad, relax and take a breath.
 
stroked 340 said:
Just got off the phone with the gentleman that assembles my engines..he did not I REPEAT DID NOT have to modify the windage tray to clear the 4" stroke,i went with ARP main studs and he had to use spacers only NO MODIFICATION OF THE TRAY WERE DONE!!!..as far as using a windage tray with a deep pan its a personal preference my assembler recommends them..do what you want its your motor,but to the people who say you need to modify it time to get a new builder or take it to someone who knows what they're doing...:read2::read2::read2:
Click to expand...

Maybe every application differs just enough, but I am screwing it together and EVERY rod HIT the tray. ZERO clearance. Granted it was a MP piece and not a Milodon. I may not "know what I'm doing", but I know WHAT I SEE...
 
1wild&crazyguy said:
340/360 have the same main caps, the one I have at least...

it's the 318 that has the shorter caps.
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Hummm... I have never rebuilt a 340 but I have owned a couple 340 blocks and I thought they have a smaller main journal like a 318. The 360 has bigger main journals. I just figured since the 340 has the same main journal size as a 318 the caps would be the same. I might be mistaken but I thought that's the way it is. Is your 340 possibly an aftermarket block?
 
fishy68 said:
Hummm... I have never rebuilt a 340 but I have owned a couple 340 blocks and I thought they have a smaller main journal like a 318. The 360 has bigger main journals. I just figured since the 340 has the same main journal size as a 318 the caps would be the same. I might be mistaken but I thought that's the way it is. Is your 340 possibly an aftermarket block?
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273/318 have the same main journal size as the 340, but the caps are not the same.
340 caps are taller...as tall as a 360 main cap which are just 340 caps machined out to 2.81.fwiw

where did you figure the wider cap thing from?

no big:cheers:
 
1wild&crazyguy said:
273/318 have the same main journal size as the 340, but the caps are not the same.
340 caps are taller...as tall as a 360 main cap which are just 340 caps machined out to 2.81.fwiw

where did you figure the wider cap thing from?

no big:cheers:
Click to expand...

I just figured the bigger main journals meant wider caps. Another reason I thought the 318 and 340 were the same caps is their oil pans interchange where-as a 360 doesn't. Never had both blocks side by side to compare them. Oh well, I guess I stand corrected.#-o LOL
 
dusterdoug said:
Maybe every application differs just enough, but I am screwing it together and EVERY rod HIT the tray. ZERO clearance. Granted it was a MP piece and not a Milodon. I may not "know what I'm doing", but I know WHAT I SEE...
Click to expand...

See, Feel and Hear it..........Know exactly what you are talking about!

Scrape, Bang, Knock when you turn it over by hand.:argue:

Never seen that smiley before.....kinda cool
 
Mad Dart said:
Your statement is absolutely ridiculous! You need to assemble one yourself and then you will know for sure........YOUR builder sounds like he is FULL OF **** to me! You absolutely don't know WTF was done to your engine unless you put it together yourself PERIOD! My last statement is based on EXPERIENCE not just BS!
Click to expand...

My builder knows more then you...he doesn't have to modify the tray to make it fit like yourself:bootysha::bootysha:..and he's also a friend of mine so i'm over his shop all the time hense i know excately whats done to my engines..good luck with that 318(boat anchor):bootysha::bootysha:
 
Lol.. you guys are funny. Take abreath, have abeer or frosty beverage of choice... Here's the deal(s?)...
-If you can run a pan that's deep enough (IMO, nothing that will clear my local granite curbs or speed bumps) then a windage tray is not needed. However, such a pan will have baffles and/or trap doors to keep the oil under control in the pan. So you just use a scraper to remove it from the wind stream. The pans are expensive too. At least the ones I'd use are.
- If you use factory main fasteners you will need to use some sort of spacers or threaded rod and nuts to space the tray away from the rods or you will hit all over regardless of the rods used... Because the tray was designed for strokes up to 3.58... Yes, they were spec'd for the cop car 360s and then 318s in the 70s and 80s... They fit and functioned fine.
- If you use studs (I do in all my 4" engines) then you use the trsy type studs and there is minor tweaking of the tray to clear the rods when some rods are used. Others will have no problem, and as far as distance from the crank, the tray is a tray... not a scraper... So it does not need to be right on the crank and indeed that might trap more oil as opposed to stopping the windage action on the oil in the sump. Mine end up about 1.5" off the crank counterweights, and have about .100" clearance at the closest points to the rod bolt nuts.
- If you use a rod that has cap screws and nuts (aka factory rods) the fasteners will require clearancing of the tray which in all my cases were simply light bends with a hand and large screwdriver to allow the pan to clear and the rods to stay off them, unless using the factory fasteners.
-I typically run stock pans for road clearance, and the factory trays for cost. The only mods I do is tweak to clear the rods if needed (so far all I've done have needed it) and I open the slots to 3/8". Theses are street engines that race, and there is little appreciable loss in power and no issues wth reliability from it. One has been dyno'd at 530hp, otehrs using the 1/4 mile mph as a guide are in excess of 460hp... I dont think the tray is robbing 40hp in eitehr case. If the car races most of the time, a better pan can be spec'd and used, and the pan will determine the use of a scraper or tray or both.

Truthfully, unless one has done at least a few and used different parts/methods, I think it's all about as relevant as choosing a hairstyle for the individual. The only important things are make sure nothing hits, and know the limits of the parts you use.

Edit:I'll try to post a pic or two tonight
 
Went with a Kevco pan, has baffles and scaper, gates etc, much better than stock and added capacity too. Good ground clearance.:)
 
stroked 340 said:
My builder knows more then you...he doesn't have to modify the tray to make it fit like yourself:bootysha::bootysha:..and he's also a friend of mine so i'm over his shop all the time hense i know excately whats done to my engines..good luck with that 318(boat anchor):bootysha::bootysha:
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Yeah, Yeah , Yeah and my Dad can beat up your Dad.............blah blah blah

I would like to think that he does since building engines ARE his thing..........you on the other hand are a different story!

A lot of people have this problem with the windage tray................

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=96922
 
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