Won't Shift Into Gear While Running

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tallzag

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Been doing a lot of research on this issue and hoping maybe somebody can come up with something I've missed before I pull the trans.

So background, car is a 1969 Dodge Dart with a 340 4 speed. Car is all original, numbers engine and trans. Finally got it to the point where I'm ready to test drive it. Start it up and can't put it into any of the gears while it is running. I can get into all the gears when it is off however. Crawled underneath and it looks like all the clutch linkage is working correctly (again, using all factory parts here, think the only non-original piece was the car had the wrong Z-Bar so got a reman one from Passon). The clutch pedal is adjusted properly and the throw out hits the pressure plate and the clutch moves out. If you put it in first when the car is off and start it the car jumps forward.

Best guesses so far, maybe clutch in backwards? Another guy put the engine and trans together a year ago so I wasn't the one to put it in. Anyway to see if it is in backwards while in the car? Can't really see up there. He said he used a roller bearing pilot, could that have seized? Any other ideas? Think I'm going to have to pull the trans, ugh.
 
Make sure the clutch is being fully disengaged when the pedal is depressed. Quick way to tell if it is not.

Put it in first. Depress the clutch pedal. Parking brake ON. Foot on brake. Start the car. If it tries to move with the clutch pedal depressed, the clutch is not fully disengaging.
 
More than likely Rusty's on the money. Do you know how to set the free-play? Which sets the plate departure, which is what you need more of.
While it is possible to put the disc in backwards, it is unlikely, since they are always clearly marked "flywheel side".
It's also possible that ,having sat so long, the disc is stuck to one of the the machined surfaces. This doesn't usually happen to cars, but I have seen it a lot on motorbikes.Using Rusty's trick will almost instantly prove if it is or is not stuck. If the engine is able to run at all with the rear brakes locked, and the pedal on the floor, then there is at least,some slippage .
The Zbar plays a critical role in getting enough departure.
 
hi, clutch disc sounds like it's in backwards. most guys don't look, just throw them in. trans will have to come out.
 
Put a feeler gauge in it and it looks like about .03 inches of separation, don't think that is enough.
 
I had this very problem when assembling my Barracuda after an engine rebuild. I had used a new crank and the hole for the pilot bushing was not drilled deep enough. The transmission slid right in and the bolts were tight with no gap between the transmission and the bellhousing. But the transmission was jammed in there just enough against the crank that releasing the clutch did nothing. If the engine was rebuilt with a new crank and everything else is the same, this might be your issue.
 
It's the original 340 crank 4 speed though so it would have been factory drilled.

OK so here is a weird one, was just playing with it and is you go down 3/4 of the way on the clutch it is free (can spin it), if you go all the way down it binds up again.
 
Then that is your issue. It has too much free travel. Free travel is the amount of travel the clutch pedal has before you can feel it engaging the clutch fork. It is very easy to feel. Simply depress the pedal with your hand until you feel hard resistance. My guess is you have 3-4 inches. Should only be about 1 inch.
 
Pretty sure the free play is not the issue, have gone from 3-4 inches of travel back to zero then back to the 1 inch that is correct and it makes no difference, it still has the same problem. It was near the end of the adjustment so put on a repo rod I had on the shelf and same thing, no change.

I just put it up on jack stands and the wheels are turning with it idling and the tranny in neutral. If I put my leg against it the wheels will stop but it's a bit of effort. I can shift it into gears when the wheels are turning (not well, but I can) but when I hit the brake I can't put it into gear. Thinking it might be the pilot? Pretty sure he said he put in one of the roller bearing ones.

Took a look inside the bell housing with a really bright light and almost certain the clutch is in the correct way. Can feel the drop off off the side from the thicker part facing back.

Been trying to figure this out for a week and appreciate the help/advice.
 
I had this same issue after converting from an automatic. Make sure that your throwout bearing can move freely from the pressure plate when the pedal is all the way out. Mine was adjusted right to the pressure plate and I couldn't shift... adjusted it back out a little bit and all is well.
 
synchros? can you double clutch it, ie. get it going then tug on shift lever while decelerating so it drops into 2nd with no clutch? if you bind after 3/4 that sounds clutch disk related. sorry for the lack of 4sp experience.
 
.030 is not enough. I set my departure to .060 to .080
It is the Zbars job to translate the pedal motion into clutch departure. With the freeplay set to about 1 inch(not critical) the departure should be a lot more than .080, with the pedal on the floor.If you are not getting at least that much, then either the Zbar or the release fork, has the wrong ratio, or the fork is not correctly engaged.
My CF-II diaphragm gets enough departure with the pedal about 60% or 70% depressed. The freeplay is just there to pull the release bearing away from the pp so that it does not rotate full-time which would wear it out prematurely.
What you can do is back out all the pp bolts about 1/4 to 3/8 to eliminate all clutch action. At this point the disc should rotate freely with the tranny in neutral;engine off. As should the rear tires, with the tranny in 4th gear, and the engine off. This will prove that the problem is solely in the clutch.But this is a last ditch test.I kindof think you're past this.
You have got to get the departure opened up, without the effort changing.
 
Throw out bearing is good, has the correct 1 inch play right now and it's just back of the forks.

Just double checked oil and it's 90W. Has a lot of bubbles on it though. Tranny has been rebuilt but customer had it done years ago, guess it could be synchros but that would really surprise me with a completely rebuilt trans. It won't go into any of the forward gears and gives a nice crunch trying to go into reverse.
 
tallzag said:
Throw out bearing is good, has the correct 1 inch play right now and it's just back of the forks.

Just double checked oil and it's 90W. Has a lot of bubbles on it though. Tranny has been rebuilt but customer had it done years ago, guess it could be synchros but that would really surprise me with a completely rebuilt trans. It won't go into any of the forward gears and gives a nice crunch trying to go into reverse.
Click to expand...

Could be a dried up pilot also.
Causes the same thing.
 
OK just tried AJ/FormS test. If the clutch is in about 3/4 of the way it will release, all the way it will bind on something. I freed the clutch, put it in 4th and the wheels turn freely. This mean it's not the pilot?

Again as mentioned as of right now, if I put the clutch in about 3/4 of the way the clutch free wheels, all the way and it won't move. I've adjusted it to it has 2-3 inches of play at the pedal - same thing, it just frees up a little higher. Making it with no free play and it's the same thing.
 
tallzag said:
OK just tried AJ/FormS test. If the clutch is in about 3/4 of the way it will release, all the way it will bind on something. I freed the clutch, put it in 4th and the wheels turn freely. This mean it's not the pilot?

Again as mentioned as of right now, if I put the clutch in about 3/4 of the way the clutch free wheels, all the way and it won't move. I've adjusted it to it has 2-3 inches of play at the pedal - same thing, it just frees up a little higher. Making it with no free play and it's the same thing.
Click to expand...

Pilot sounds fine.

Man, it's hard to tell but almost sounds like the linkage geometry is off.
Once the clutch releases there isn't much more it has to do, but it sounds like the pressure plate is over traveling.

So in theory if you adjusted about 3-4 inches of freeplay it would act normal but you would just have a lot of travel before it actually came up against the throwout bearing?

If so the travel ratio on something is not right.

I would suggest that you hit Brewers up and talk to them about it.

PH: (937) 947-4416 or (937) 698-4259
FAX: (937) 947-4419
Monday-Friday 9AM-5PM
 
Makes me think you may have the wrong fork pivot bracket bolted in
the bellhousing. If it is at a different height or angle you would have adjustment
issues. I had this happen on a lakewood that was previously used on a truck before
I used it in a dart. Check fork and throw out bearing length while your in there.
They made more than just the one you need on these parts.
Changing to the correct pivot made it all work together correct for me.
Just something to check that hasn't been mentioned yet?
Brewers site is a good guide to confirm what your car is built with to find a possible mismatch.
 
The clutch disc is in backwards.
 
I looked inside the bell housing and could feel the ridge on the back of the clutch so 99% sure it's in right. You can kind of feel the hat on the back. Compared the fork to the picture on Brewers site and it looks right but should probably pull it to be 100% sure. Site said it is 7 inches long and rough measuring it in the car that looks right. Calling them is a good idea.
 
Did you install a new pilot bushing in the crank? Or is it the same used one that was already in the crank?
 
TrailBeast said:
Ya think?
I didn't think that was physically possible due to crank end clearance.
But then I guess it depends on the design doesn't it?
Click to expand...

Yeah, most any of them have room to install backwards. Ask me how I know.
 
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