12:05 Garage- ’70 Duster build

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it shouldn't take more than a day to make nice neat mounts. if you've not located the 'real' thing by the time you 'need' them you'll be the one making it longer by not making them your self, lol. you know you can do it and make a good job so when/if the time comes...... :thumbsup:
neil.
 
Officially registered for 2023 Moparty Grand Champion. LET"S GO!

My confidence that the 5.7 will be installed by Moparty is beginning subside. I ordered the TTI engine mounts so I could get to work on modifying them and the cross member. But guess what- no stock anywhere. TTI is even out of them. I can't say I'm surprised, but why wouldn't they have a pile of these in stock. The design is super simple and I would imagine assembling them can't take that long compared to their headers. I would make my own, but I want to make sure the engine is in the proper position to work with their headers. I just don't want to create problems that will bite me in the *** later. Their production is scheduled for late May, so I'll be here waiting until then.
I'm not the type of person that will be down to the last hour before I have to leave working to get it complete. I want at least a month on the setup before I travel 9 hours to beat on it. As much as I'd love to get the swap done over a weekend, in reality, that won't happen. I have to plan for at least a couple weeks. That put me pulling the 408 in July. It doesn't seem like a reality. The good news is, the car is currently running perfectly and I don't plan on changing anything until then.

I know they aren't TTI mounts and there is always the concern that the motor will be in a different spot, but these are in stock:


And TTI has measurements for the engine location. So you could verify where the above mounts locate the motor and shim accordingly.


As a bonus, the above mounts do away with the biscuit isolators.

Just a thought.
 
Been reading the slant six k-frame to G3 thread and this post makes me think the above mounts would be easier to modify than the TTI mounts if someone wanted to move the mount back for AC compressor clearance as well. Can't tell what the QA1 k-frame looks like on the drivers side, but the stock k-frame looks like the mount pad could even be slide back rather than moving the motor forward 3/8" like @70Sbird did.

One thing to note is that part of why the changes in the linked post worked is because it was a VVT motor. They have the AC compressor further forward when compared to the non-VVT motors so between that, the design of the mount and moving the motor 3/8" he was able to make it work. On a non-VVT motor you would need to move the mount back something like 7/8"+ to make it work, maybe more depending on the AC compressor and which bolt it used on the block.

This might make me rethink my swap and using the Holley mounts if there was a simple fix for the SRV to firewall clearance issue.
 
I know they aren't TTI mounts and there is always the concern that the motor will be in a different spot, but these are in stock:


And TTI has measurements for the engine location. So you could verify where the above mounts locate the motor and shim accordingly.


As a bonus, the above mounts do away with the biscuit isolators.

Just a thought.

The mounts came in. The driver side mount makes me question why someone (QA1) isn't making a G3 swap K-member with special mounts like I mentioned in a different thread. I don't see any way a factory AC compressor will work with TTI mounts. The solution would be to find a shorty compressor and make a mount for it, or completely hack the mounts off the k-member and make some from scratch. I do think the /6 K member is likely the best starting point for the G3.

I'm ready to assemble the engine and get to work on the harness, I just need to get gaskets. I'm not sure what types of parts local stores stock, but it certainly isn't parts for a 5.7! I thought those challenges would have gone away with a modern engine. I was wrong. Thankfully rock auto has everything I need. I'll just order from them...
 
The mounts came in. The driver side mount makes me question why someone (QA1) isn't making a G3 swap K-member with special mounts like I mentioned in a different thread. I don't see any way a factory AC compressor will work with TTI mounts. The solution would be to find a shorty compressor and make a mount for it, or completely hack the mounts off the k-member and make some from scratch. I do think the /6 K member is likely the best starting point for the G3.

Nice!

Based on pictures I have seen the TTI DS mounts looks to have been engineered specifically to make it impossible to use a low mount AC compressor. Pretty sure they were the first to market so not a big surprise.

The Schumacher DS mount (same as the ones linked above from Classic) looks to be really simple to mod and move the mount back. The QA1 k-frame looks a little sketchy to try and relocate the DS mount, but just a guess. Either way, I think it might be possible. I know it has been done using the spool mounts, but I would guess the biscuit mount k-frames would be even easier to do it with. I really think it would be possible to relocate the DS mount on the k-frame and modify the Schumacher DS mount and get a low mount AC compressor to work without moving the motor forward. At least with a VVT motor, but maybe with non-VVT motor as well.

The VVT motors appear to use a shorter compressor, plus it it moved forward about 1/2", which is why the Holley mounts say low mount compressors will work but only on VVT motors. If there is a shorter compressor for a non-VVT motor, I would look at the compressor for an 09-10 Challenger with a 5.7, the one without the bottom rear hole. In theory, those motors share the same belt offset as the '08 down 5.7 non-VVT motors, but no idea if they changed the spacing on the timing cover so it is just a guess. Pretty sure it was researched pretty hard and people came up blank but could be I am wrong, or they just missed the oddball belt spacing the '09/10 5.7 used.
 
Nice!

Based on pictures I have seen the TTI DS mounts looks to have been engineered specifically to make it impossible to use a low mount AC compressor. Pretty sure they were the first to market so not a big surprise.

The Schumacher DS mount (same as the ones linked above from Classic) looks to be really simple to mod and move the mount back. The QA1 k-frame looks a little sketchy to try and relocate the DS mount, but just a guess. Either way, I think it might be possible. I know it has been done using the spool mounts, but I would guess the biscuit mount k-frames would be even easier to do it with. I really think it would be possible to relocate the DS mount on the k-frame and modify the Schumacher DS mount and get a low mount AC compressor to work without moving the motor forward. At least with a VVT motor, but maybe with non-VVT motor as well.

The VVT motors appear to use a shorter compressor, plus it it moved forward about 1/2", which is why the Holley mounts say low mount compressors will work but only on VVT motors. If there is a shorter compressor for a non-VVT motor, I would look at the compressor for an 09-10 Challenger with a 5.7, the one without the bottom rear hole. In theory, those motors share the same belt offset as the '08 down 5.7 non-VVT motors, but no idea if they changed the spacing on the timing cover so it is just a guess. Pretty sure it was researched pretty hard and people came up blank but could be I am wrong, or they just missed the oddball belt spacing the '09/10 5.7 used.
Check this $hit out. Circles bolt holes are compressor mounting locations. I know I could live without the back one, but dammit.

DEE65CDC-BE0F-475B-A3C3-0A77504DE91B.jpeg
 
Check this $hit out. Circles bolt holes are compressor mounting locations. I know I could live without the back one, but dammit.

View attachment 1716096817

Yuck.

There is (I think) a third hole that the VVT motors use for their compressor mounting, up by the circled bolt in the TTI mount. Not that it is any more useable.

Couldn't you cut the part off that the biscuit bolts to and slide it back on the plate like you plan to do on the PS side? You would also have to relocate the mount on the k-frame to match of course. But might that give you room to at least use the mount close to the oil pan? Just an idea.

I'm liking the Schumacher mounts more and more. They don't use the same holes and might even leave the bottom mount clear.
 
TTI spool mounts but with a VVT motor. Maybe the pictures will be useful...

 
Yuck.

There is (I think) a third hole that the VVT motors use for their compressor mounting, up by the circled bolt in the TTI mount. Not that it is any more useable.

Couldn't you cut the part off that the biscuit bolts to and slide it back on the plate like you plan to do on the PS side? You would also have to relocate the mount on the k-frame to match of course. But might that give you room to at least use the mount close to the oil pan? Just an idea.

I'm liking the Schumacher mounts more and more. They don't use the same holes and might even leave the bottom mount clear.
I haven't looked into compressors much, but I have heard that some of the newer style compressors can't be used. Something about the compressor not being a normal 2 wire deal.
 
I haven't looked into compressors much, but I have heard that some of the newer style compressors can't be used. Something about the compressor not being a normal 2 wire deal.

Interesting. Hadn't heard that before.

I wonder when a compressor is considered "newer". The '09/10 one I suggested is only for those years and 14 years old now. The next "generation" appears to be 11-14, and then 2015-2021. I know around 2015 is when they went to the R1234yf refrigerant, but no idea if that is part of the cutoff.
 
Interesting. Hadn't heard that before.

I wonder when a compressor is considered "newer". The '09/10 one I suggested is only for those years and 14 years old now. The next "generation" appears to be 11-14, and then 2015-2021. I know around 2015 is when they went to the R1234yf refrigerant, but no idea if that is part of the cutoff.
I just remembered some of them are variable displacement compressors. I don't know exactly what's different, but I'd image the factory ecm has some type of control that won't be present if using a standalone ecm. I also don't know what year started with those, but it isn't across the board. Some have them, some don't. Chrysler doesn't do anything easy.
 
Finally feel like I'm making some forward progress with 5.7 engine assembly. The Holley cast pan is a quality piece, I was pretty impressed. The best thing about it, it went on without having to modify anything. I did have to procure the main cap stud that holds the pickup since I have an engine out of a car. My understanding the truck engines have this stud already. Fortunately my local dodge dealer had one in stock.

oil pan.jpg


pick up s.jpg


pickup.jpg


The power steering pump was pretty nasty from being bare aluminum, so I took it apart to bead blast the housing. While I was at it, I bought a rebuild kit from Rock Auto. Note that it is a "Toyoda" part and it is fairly known that the pressure output can be adjusted by getting the regulator valve from various Toyota cars. Rock Auto didn't show a rebuild kit under the charger section, but did under the Toyota section. For $10 I took my chances. All of the seals in the kit were a perfect match for the pump. I'll be hitting up my local junkyard to get the pressure valve out of a "Yoda".
ps pump 2.jpg


ps pump.jpg
 
I like the black pan. When I bought mine, Holley didn't offer them in black then.

At least it is easier to paint mine black than it would be for someone to strip a black one. :D
 
I like the black pan. When I bought mine, Holley didn't offer them in black then.

At least it is easier to paint mine black than it would be for someone to strip a black one. :D
For whatever reason, it was about $50 cheaper than the bare cast. I figured I'd paint it orange until I saw it. I like the black.
 
I did a thing, which may surprise a bunch of people.... My car is now setup with an HDK coil over K member.... you know, for science. Can it handle better than the stock K?

The stock K setup owes me nothing. It's done great and I likely didn't reach it's limit because I'm not a pro driver. Thanks to the help from people on this forum, I was able to source all the parts that can make a t-bar suspension work in ways the auto designers of the 60s could have never imagined.

I've read so many negative comments about coil over setups, but I can't create an opinion without experiencing it myself. So lets start with the 3 common items why people say coil over setups aren't good.

1.) The shock towers aren't meant to hold the weight of the car: Denny has addressed this with his hoops that connect the shock tower to the chassis. It's very robust. That $hit ain't going nowhere!
2.) Coil over setups don't have enough travel: Since Denny's kit uses the shock tower (with his special bracket for the coil over) the coil over I'm using is 16-7/8" at full extension, which is bump stop limited to 16.5". The stock shock is 15.5". The suspension travel distance between the stock setup and Denny's is very similar. I feel like the stock suspension can droop further and the HDK compresses further. I failed to measure the stock K before I took it apart. Other brand coil over setups do use a shorter shock so this statement won't apply to the others.
3.) Aftermarket Ks don't have enough camber gain: This statement is true. THe HDK does have less camber gain. However, is this even important? I don't know enough to see the benefits and hope someone can educate me. Here's the way I see it. Camber gain is the increase of camber as the suspension compresses. In a hard stop situation when the car nose dives, wouldn't I want to keep the tire as flat as possible? Camber gain would have a negative affect on this. I realize it may help in a turn, but that's where caster comes in. Why not set an aggressive caster so the tire tilts in on the turn when the body rolls. Again, I'm not an expert on this particular topic, so I don't know if it is good or bad.

The spindle/hub assembly you see below is a drop in for the Mustang 2, but uses a C5/C6 corvette hub and brake configuration. I didn't have enough GM parts on my car, so I chose this over the standard M2 spindle. My wheels wouldn't work with the standard C5 brakes since the rotor and caliper are extremely close to the face of the hub. Converting to the radial mount Wilwood allows for lots of adjustment. I was able to shim the bracket very easily to accommodate the brake rotors I was previously using.


I'll elaborate more on this soon. I drove the car a few miles to check my home alignment and also let the springs settle so I can adjust ride height if needed. So far brakes are good, steering is a rack, so that's an obvious difference. More to come....

K.jpg


HDK.jpg


hub 2.jpg


hub.jpg


brake.jpg
 
Not going to lie, I was a little disappointed that this wasn't the G3 install. :poke:

I've read so many negative comments about coil over setups...

I am certain I haven't read all the comments, but most of what I remember starts with "I have to have a COC to make my car handle" which usually devolves into the deficiencies of one or both systems.

I don't believe there is a perfect solution out there, my only gripe is the push by the aftermarket to make it seem like a $5k+ system is the only option.

It will be interesting to hear your back to back review on this. Far as I know, this will be the first one.

BTW, of all the COC options, I think HDK is the best of them. So good choice there.

The spindle/hub assembly you see below is a drop in for the Mustang 2, but uses a C5/C6 corvette hub and brake configuration.

I've often wished there was an option for a cartridge style wheel bearing setup for an A-Body. I should have guessed there was an option for the M2 spindles. At the same time, I wonder if it wasn't just a cost cutting solution for the OEM's and the stock setup is actually more robust. Doubt it matters, it's not like you see C5/6 Vette's littering the road courses missing a wheel because of a failure.

I know you were working on some of the issues with a G3 swap (oil filter and AC compressor clearance), is that part of why you made the jump?
 
Doubt it matters, it's not like you see C5/6 Vette's littering the road courses missing a wheel because of a failure.
There actually is an SKF hub that most guys that track their corvette upgrade to. Not sure if it's absolutely necessary but there is a market for it.
 
Not going to lie, I was a little disappointed that this wasn't the G3 install. :poke:



I am certain I haven't read all the comments, but most of what I remember starts with "I have to have a COC to make my car handle" which usually devolves into the deficiencies of one or both systems.

I don't believe there is a perfect solution out there, my only gripe is the push by the aftermarket to make it seem like a $5k+ system is the only option.

It will be interesting to hear your back to back review on this. Far as I know, this will be the first one.

BTW, of all the COC options, I think HDK is the best of them. So good choice there.



I've often wished there was an option for a cartridge style wheel bearing setup for an A-Body. I should have guessed there was an option for the M2 spindles. At the same time, I wonder if it wasn't just a cost cutting solution for the OEM's and the stock setup is actually more robust. Doubt it matters, it's not like you see C5/6 Vette's littering the road courses missing a wheel because of a failure.

I know you were working on some of the issues with a G3 swap (oil filter and AC compressor clearance), is that part of why you made the jump?
LOL on the hemi. The last month of life has be extra busy. I'll get back on it over the fall/winter. The K install took way longer than I wanted it to. Not because it was difficult, it was finding the time to dedicate to it. Not to mention, we've had heat indexes in the 110+ lately and it's hard to stay out there for more than a few hours before I'm done with it.

I do agree that people automatically turn to thinking its better. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I don't know of anyone that has done a comparison.

HDK has always been the kit that caught my attention since I'm not a fan of the short travel shock on the others.

The HDK will make the G3 installation a breeze. I could have made the other setup work, but sometimes, it's nice when things fall into place. I will say, the HDK went in without having to modify anything. It was a perfect fit. Oh, the weigh savings is incredible. I could carry that complete HDK in the picture above in one hand. I wouldn't even think of that with the stock K.
 
I did a thing, which may surprise a bunch of people.... My car is now setup with an HDK coil over K member.... you know, for science. Can it handle better than the stock K?

The stock K setup owes me nothing. It's done great and I likely didn't reach it's limit because I'm not a pro driver. Thanks to the help from people on this forum, I was able to source all the parts that can make a t-bar suspension work in ways the auto designers of the 60s could have never imagined.

I've read so many negative comments about coil over setups, but I can't create an opinion without experiencing it myself. So lets start with the 3 common items why people say coil over setups aren't good.

1.) The shock towers aren't meant to hold the weight of the car: Denny has addressed this with his hoops that connect the shock tower to the chassis. It's very robust. That $hit ain't going nowhere!
2.) Coil over setups don't have enough travel: Since Denny's kit uses the shock tower (with his special bracket for the coil over) the coil over I'm using is 16-7/8" at full extension, which is bump stop limited to 16.5". The stock shock is 15.5". The suspension travel distance between the stock setup and Denny's is very similar. I feel like the stock suspension can droop further and the HDK compresses further. I failed to measure the stock K before I took it apart. Other brand coil over setups do use a shorter shock so this statement won't apply to the others.
3.) Aftermarket Ks don't have enough camber gain: This statement is true. THe HDK does have less camber gain. However, is this even important? I don't know enough to see the benefits and hope someone can educate me. Here's the way I see it. Camber gain is the increase of camber as the suspension compresses. In a hard stop situation when the car nose dives, wouldn't I want to keep the tire as flat as possible? Camber gain would have a negative affect on this. I realize it may help in a turn, but that's where caster comes in. Why not set an aggressive caster so the tire tilts in on the turn when the body rolls. Again, I'm not an expert on this particular topic, so I don't know if it is good or bad.

The spindle/hub assembly you see below is a drop in for the Mustang 2, but uses a C5/C6 corvette hub and brake configuration. I didn't have enough GM parts on my car, so I chose this over the standard M2 spindle. My wheels wouldn't work with the standard C5 brakes since the rotor and caliper are extremely close to the face of the hub. Converting to the radial mount Wilwood allows for lots of adjustment. I was able to shim the bracket very easily to accommodate the brake rotors I was previously using.


I'll elaborate more on this soon. I drove the car a few miles to check my home alignment and also let the springs settle so I can adjust ride height if needed. So far brakes are good, steering is a rack, so that's an obvious difference. More to come....

View attachment 1716127645

View attachment 1716127642

View attachment 1716127643

View attachment 1716127644

View attachment 1716127641

:eek:

But seriously, I’m interested in hearing your opinion on the swap. Not very many people have done as much as you did to make the most out of the torsion bar suspension before doing the swap to coil overs. And that’s always been my gripe, people do the conversion thinking it’s necessary to handle well, which isn’t true.

All things being equal, I still think the chassis being designed to carry the suspension loads radially through the K and torsion bar crossmember VS vertically on the forward frame rails is the biggest issue, and one that is not addressed by Denny’s hoop reinforcement. The Mopar chassis has flex between the frame rails and cowl (“cowl shake”) and running coil overs up front increases the vertical load on the rails, making that problem worse. IMO that calls for additional bracing between the cowl and rails. Stiffening the shock mounts to carry the coil overs is necessary too for the HDK, but additional reinforcement is needed in the form of “J” bars or something similar to USCT’s shock tower to cowl reinforcement. That’s true for all of the conversions, regardless of how the coil overs are mounted.

The HDK retains the factory amount of suspension travel, but some of the competing coil over conversions do not, so while travel may not be an issue with the HDK in particular it is still a valid issue with the others.

Another issue, and I don’t know if it’s relevant for the HDK to be honest, is turning radius. It is an issue on some of the other conversions. The rack used doesn’t allow the same amount of turning angle. Not a big deal on a cruiser, but for AutoX it can be an issue on tight courses.

Camber gain is important, and the torsion bar system is a good one for that. It isn’t an extreme amount by any means either, so again IMO less would not be advantageous. But most of the geometry changes between the torsion bar system and the coil over conversions can be filed under pros/cons, they both have things they’re better at. And some of them are made better/worse by other factors in the set up that can make them more specific to a particular car. Most are pretty minor, so, most drivers aren’t going to notice much.

The weight savings of the entire system depends very much on options. It’s not as much as most people think, I’ve documented it several times. And more than just weight, it’s worth noting that the layout of the coil over system will tend to raise the CG, especially vs a manual steering stock set up. The coil overs are the heavy part, and they’re mounted high.
 
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I am excited to have Tim put the HDK thru its paces.....only HDK directives given are to be honest in his evaluations and have fun. All feedback is welcome. He has already upgraded the ride height simulators.

Denny
HDK
 
DD501 shocks, 12HT400 spring. (12")
It looks like the lower shock mounts are pretty low on the LCA's too. I like that since it seems it would allow for a longer coilover shock and more suspension travel. When I converted mine with stock LCA's, I ended up raising the upper mount. In hind site, I should've thought about lowering the lower mount. I'll be curious what your takeaways from the swap are!
 
It looks like the lower shock mounts are pretty low on the LCA's too. I like that since it seems it would allow for a longer coilover shock and more suspension travel. When I converted mine with stock LCA's, I ended up raising the upper mount. In hind site, I should've thought about lowering the lower mount. I'll be curious what your takeaways from the swap are!

The amount of drop in the suspension travel on the HDK is limited buy the length of the UCAs, moving the ball joint(s) outward allows additional travel. It is a trade off, more travel or keeping the wheels / tires tucked in. I find 99% of HDK customers find 5 (plus) inches a good compromise. Of course with adjustable ends on both LCAs and UCAs, if more travel is needed, simply adjust the control arms outward.

While a big advantage of the HDK over the others is being able to utilize a longer travel shock while keeping your tires tucked. Also check out the hardware....grade 8 bolts, shocks that ride on shoulder of the bolt, not the threads, and let me mention over the counter (non modified) spindles utilizing automotive, greaseable / serviceable tie rod ends. BTW, one K fits all. Tim will breath a sigh of relief when he swaps to his Gen III, even the OEM A/C compressor will bolt right up.

HDKs lower OEM collapsible shaft replacement assembly with lower bearing makes swaps, installs, and removal a breeze

The HDK may not be for everyone, but it can be a nice option.
 
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:eek:

But seriously, I’m interested in hearing your opinion on the swap. Not very many people have done as much as you did to make the most out of the torsion bar suspension before doing the swap to coil overs. And that’s always been my gripe, people do the conversion thinking it’s necessary to handle well, which isn’t true.

All things being equal, I still think the chassis being designed to carry the suspension loads radially through the K and torsion bar crossmember VS vertically on the forward frame rails is the biggest issue, and one that is not addressed by Denny’s hoop reinforcement. The Mopar chassis has flex between the frame rails and cowl (“cowl shake”) and running coil overs up front increases the vertical load on the rails, making that problem worse. IMO that calls for additional bracing between the cowl and rails. Stiffening the shock mounts to carry the coil overs is necessary too for the HDK, but additional reinforcement is needed in the form of “J” bars or something similar to USCT’s shock tower to cowl reinforcement. That’s true for all of the conversions, regardless of how the coil overs are mounted.

The HDK retains the factory amount of suspension travel, but some of the competing coil over conversions do not, so while travel may not be an issue with the HDK in particular it is still a valid issue with the others.

Another issue, and I don’t know if it’s relevant for the HDK to be honest, is turning radius. It is an issue on some of the other conversions. The rack used doesn’t allow the same amount of turning angle. Not a big deal on a cruiser, but for AutoX it can be an issue on tight courses.

Camber gain is important, and the torsion bar system is a good one for that. It isn’t an extreme amount by any means either, so again IMO less would not be advantageous. But most of the geometry changes between the torsion bar system and the coil over conversions can be filed under pros/cons, they both have things they’re better at. And some of them are made better/worse by other factors in the set up that can make them more specific to a particular car. Most are pretty minor, so, most drivers aren’t going to notice much.

The weight savings of the entire system depends very much on options. It’s not as much as most people think, I’ve documented it several times. And more than just weight, it’s worth noting that the layout of the coil over system will tend to raise the CG, especially vs a manual steering stock set up. The coil overs are the heavy part, and they’re mounted high.

I spent a long time thinking about the chassis stiffness and CG situation and eventually said screw it. I won't learn anything if I don't try. I think the only way to have real data would have to scale the car before and after to determine the weight bias. One would think if more weight is now on the front of the car, the rear would have raised some. It didn't. However, I do expect to have a change in fore/aft balance. Some may remember I had a big understeer problem, but I resolved that with the addition of a rear sway bar on the tightest hole setting and tire pressure. My expectation is now I'll have an oversteer problem, but that should be easily fixed by loosening the rear sway bar, or removing it all together. The way I see it, I have 3 more setting for that.
 
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