12:05 Garage- ’70 Duster build

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What I want is for the dumb thing to drive down the road straight. Camber isn't going to make that happen, but if I have to mess with the alignment, might as well dial that up some.

Pretty sure my Borgeson box went bad and that is the issue I have been fighting all summer. The nervousness and twitchiness seem to be gone after swapping in an OEM PS box, but the alignment is junk so it still doesn't drive great. Just need time and at least one more nice day to test drive it and get it over to storage so I can get back on my G3 swap car.
Caster is what makes them drive straight. The problem I face is a lot of the roads around here are canted to the outside for rain drainage. That makes the car pull to the right when on these roads. It drives straight on flat ground. I've heard that some shops adjust the caster to counter act this. Now, 18" wheels with short side walls will follow ruts in the road to an extent also. At the end of the day, it's a tradeoff for me. I don't daily drive it, so I'm not worried about pre-mature tire wear, and I can put up with weird things like it pulling a little on an angled road. We can't expect these cars to ride as comfortable as a 2025 model car. That being said, my car rides really nice for what it is. I used to street drive with the front coil overs adjusted fairly soft. I recently tried them almost double the amount of "clicks" and I was pleasantly surprised how much better it was.
 
Caster is what makes them drive straight. The problem I face is a lot of the roads around here are canted to the outside for rain drainage. That makes the car pull to the right when on these roads. It drives straight on flat ground. I've heard that some shops adjust the caster to counter act this. Now, 18" wheels with short side walls will follow ruts in the road to an extent also. At the end of the day, it's a tradeoff for me. I don't daily drive it, so I'm not worried about pre-mature tire wear, and I can put up with weird things like it pulling a little on an angled road. We can't expect these cars to ride as comfortable as a 2025 model car. That being said, my car rides really nice for what it is. I used to street drive with the front coil overs adjusted fairly soft. I recently tried them almost double the amount of "clicks" and I was pleasantly surprised how much better it was.

Yep, I know caster makes it go straight. I'm not thinking more camber would help it, only that since I have to mess with caster to get them more equal it would be the right time to mess with camber as well if I was going to.

This car has 245/45R17's so not as wide as some of the stuff running around. I am sure the width makes it want to follow ruts and such, but probably not as much as a 265 or 275 tire on an 18" wheel. The issue now is a big unbalance to the caster. Before I changed the box, it felt like something was loose or broken and the car felt like it wanted to go left, left, left, right, left, right, right, right, left, etc. all in about 20 feet. It wasn't a comfortable feeling.

I think most of the OEM's run a touch less caster and camber on the left. My thought right now is to take a page from the late model Challengers and run about 0.75 degrees less caster and 0.25 less camber on the left and see how it does. Not going to shoot for the 8-9 degrees caster they run though.

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This isn't my daily driver either, but frankly I would like to use it that way at some point. Or maybe the G3 swapped Duster. Either way, I would like it to work like an S197 Mustang at some point. Always good to have a dream, right? Or maybe it's just time to jump ship and just buy a 3V S197 and give up on the old cars. I know for certain I can buy a Coyote S197 for less than I will have in my G3 car, and it would have AC and ABS which my '73 Duster isn't going to have at that cost. Good think I'm not sitting on any real cash. :D
 
Before I changed the box, it felt like something was loose or broken and the car felt like it wanted to go left, left, left, right, left, right, right, right, left, etc. all in about 20 feet. It wasn't a comfortable feeling.
A rack would fix that mess.:poke:
:lol:
 
Yep, I know caster makes it go straight. I'm not thinking more camber would help it, only that since I have to mess with caster to get them more equal it would be the right time to mess with camber as well if I was going to.

This car has 245/45R17's so not as wide as some of the stuff running around. I am sure the width makes it want to follow ruts and such, but probably not as much as a 265 or 275 tire on an 18" wheel. The issue now is a big unbalance to the caster. Before I changed the box, it felt like something was loose or broken and the car felt like it wanted to go left, left, left, right, left, right, right, right, left, etc. all in about 20 feet. It wasn't a comfortable feeling.

I think most of the OEM's run a touch less caster and camber on the left. My thought right now is to take a page from the late model Challengers and run about 0.75 degrees less caster and 0.25 less camber on the left and see how it does. Not going to shoot for the 8-9 degrees caster they run though.

1758253078466-png.1716456903


This isn't my daily driver either, but frankly I would like to use it that way at some point. Or maybe the G3 swapped Duster. Either way, I would like it to work like an S197 Mustang at some point. Always good to have a dream, right? Or maybe it's just time to jump ship and just buy a 3V S197 and give up on the old cars. I know for certain I can buy a Coyote S197 for less than I will have in my G3 car, and it would have AC and ABS which my '73 Duster isn't going to have at that cost. Good think I'm not sitting on any real cash. :D
Mehh, the easy button would certainly be to abort this mission with an old car and go with a S550 Mustang or a C5/C6 corvette. I know I'll never be the fastest out there regardless what I'm driving, so why not drive something cool.
The weekend before CtC was our local autox. I didn't bring my car because the weather was crappy. I'm not opposed to racing in the rain, but its the drive to and from that I don't trust the general public's driving. Anyway, one of our members graciously offered me a co-drive in their stock Miata. This was the first time driving anything besides my car on the autox. I did all my runs in the morning, which were on damp pavement. By our lunch break, I was 4th overall and top pax. It took all 6 of my runs to somewhat figure out how to drive that thing. After lunch, the pavement dried and I was promptly passed up. I'm sure I could have improved given the opportunity to learn how to drive it on dry pavement. So would I be fast in something better than my 55 year old car? Maybe, but I don't care. My attachment to muscle cars is much stronger than my desire to be on the podium with a car you see everyday in the grocery store parking lot.
 
Mehh, the easy button would certainly be to abort this mission with an old car and go with a S550 Mustang or a C5/C6 corvette. I know I'll never be the fastest out there regardless what I'm driving, so why not drive something cool.
The weekend before CtC was our local autox. I didn't bring my car because the weather was crappy. I'm not opposed to racing in the rain, but its the drive to and from that I don't trust the general public's driving. Anyway, one of our members graciously offered me a co-drive in their stock Miata. This was the first time driving anything besides my car on the autox. I did all my runs in the morning, which were on damp pavement. By our lunch break, I was 4th overall and top pax. It took all 6 of my runs to somewhat figure out how to drive that thing. After lunch, the pavement dried and I was promptly passed up. I'm sure I could have improved given the opportunity to learn how to drive it on dry pavement. So would I be fast in something better than my 55 year old car? Maybe, but I don't care. My attachment to muscle cars is much stronger than my desire to be on the podium with a car you see everyday in the grocery store parking lot.

Not sure what a C5/6 Vette costs, but I know I can't swing an S550 either way. And I have to like the car, which isn't something I can say about an S550. Drove one back from Helena, MT when I sold my Challenger and just don't like them. Not that I wouldn't say no to a Mach1 or Dark Horse. :)

I understand what you are saying about your attachment to a muscle car and old cars. Funny thing is, when I got my '74 up and running after dragging it out of a JY, I started using it as a daily. At that time, it was about 22 years old. A 2005 S197 is 20 years old, not much difference. I know, it's apples to oranges.

Understand that I'm not thinking about this because I am hoping to podium at some AutoX. Not saying it doesn't cross my mind that it is an "easy" path to "faster", there were three S197 at Ford Fest this year that were close-ish to Peachy in his Viper. But it's not the big reason.

My projected cost for my G3 car is just under $16K. That's running and driving, and includes the cost of the car. Really not bad for a slightly hotter 5.7, T56 car. But it doesn't include any suspension upgrades, AC, ABS/TC, nicer interior, paint, etc. For half that I could have gotten a 3V GT, or maybe for the same money as the Duster a Coyote.

And an S197 has the advantages of a good ABS and TC, air conditioning, a decent suspension after some tweaks, plus it can swallow a 285/35R18 or bigger tire without touching the sheetmetal. The body is so stiff it doesn't need reinforcements, doesn't weight any more than my Duster probably will, big brakes bolt on without aftermarket kits, the rear suspension is a step up even if it isn't IRS and the aftermarket actual makes things for it. Oh, and to @75slant6's point, it has a rack, even an EPAS rack in the later ones.

I figure I have 6 months of consistent work, maybe, (and $2K) left to get my '73 on the road, assuming one of the 2 core motors I have works out. And that's kind of the crux of it all. I like to drive my cars, that's why I build them (loosely applied). Whether there is an autox, drag race, car show, Walmart, or road trip destination at the other end, I want to drive. It's one reason I was drawn to pro-touring and road racing, 20 minutes on a road course is a lot more time than 10-15 seconds on a drag strip. And I don't want to drive it only on Saturday, I want to drive it every day if possible. It's also why I am so stuck on having AC and cruise control. So instead of 6 months, an S197 is a drive it now deal, and already has a bunch of upgrades I will need another 6-18 months to add to a Duster.

If the '74 hadn't been giving me problems, I would have been driving it this whole summer. That was the plan. And I knew it would help offset the impatience of not being able to drive the '73. Instead, all I have done this summer is work on the '74, not drive anything other than test drives, and not make any progress on the '73. And it's hard not to throw up your hands and kick it all to the curb after awhile.

Frankly, if the summer up here wasn't over, I'd look hard at selling my '74, paying off the loan I took out to buy my Dad's truck after he passed last year and then buying a 3V S197. I would like to think after that I would still work on the '73, but human nature says it would sit in the way until I got frustrated with it and sold it for pennies on the dollar. I think I would continue working on it, but I have to honest about the possibility.

Even if I don't jump to an S197, at some point I am going to have two running Dusters and will probably have to make a decision about selling one anyways. But I don't think I would buy an S197 at that point.

Oh, and to the point about seeing other ones in the grocery store parking lot, that actually gives me some comfort. The Duster is getting old enough that it sticks out and the idea that an S197 would be much more low key is good (for me). Too many yahoo's out there any more, and I would rather just enjoy my car and not care if anyone notices it. I would almost always rather not be noticed in the end.
 
That you'd still have to spend a pile of money on suspension wise to handle worth a ****.

CorteX Racing

Not to mention the 3V engine is turd. If you're buying an S197 save your pennies and at least get a 2011-2014 5.0

No argument that it would need mods, but it’s still a running driving V8 manual car that’s fun to drive for less than an HDK that still needs brakes. And a car to bolt it into that still doesn’t have ABS/TC, CC, AC, etc.

I figured an SLA kit would be a direction I might think about, but to start I would work on kind of duplicating the 12-13 Boss suspension, at least for a time.

A 3V might not be a Coyote, but it’s a start. Looks like a 5.0 car is twice the cost of a 3V, and they can be swapped without a ton of work. Or even cheaper, buy a V6 car and Coyote swap that.

I still think it is still a solid option, even if it isn’t perfect. Lot of benefits in my mind. And no more Mopar Tax.
 
No argument that it would need mods, but it’s still a running driving V8 manual car that’s fun to drive for less than an HDK that still needs brakes. And a car to bolt it into that still doesn’t have ABS/TC, CC, AC, etc.

I figured an SLA kit would be a direction I might think about, but to start I would work on kind of duplicating the 12-13 Boss suspension, at least for a time.

A 3V might not be a Coyote, but it’s a start. Looks like a 5.0 car is twice the cost of a 3V, and they can be swapped without a ton of work. Or even cheaper, buy a V6 car and Coyote swap that.

I still think it is still a solid option, even if it isn’t perfect. Lot of benefits in my mind. And no more Mopar Tax.
Yes but buying/building a Mustang because it’s faster and cheaper than a Mopar is like ordering a hamburger steak instead of a ribeye. :poke:
 
Yes but buying/building a Mustang because it’s faster and cheaper than a Mopar is like ordering a hamburger steak instead of a ribeye. :poke:

You sound like that French guy; "Let them eat ribeye!" Or was that cake, I forget. Either way, better a hamburger than starving. :p

So suggest to me a Mopar alternative that is a RWD coupe that has an EFI V8, manual trans, AC, CC and ABS, costs less than $10K and doesn't weight 4200+ pounds. And note that "faster than..." wasn't a criteria.

And before you say "build one", remember that will cost far more than $10K and will take 5+ years and a minor engineering coup to make CC and ABS work.
 
You sound like that French guy; "Let them eat ribeye!" Or was that cake, I forget. Either way, better a hamburger than starving. :p

So suggest to me a Mopar alternative that is a RWD coupe that has an EFI V8, manual trans, AC, CC and ABS, costs less than $10K and doesn't weight 4200+ pounds. And note that "faster than..." wasn't a criteria.

And before you say "build one", remember that will cost far more than $10K and will take 5+ years and a minor engineering coup to make CC and ABS work.

I think the easiest solution is to consider why you really need CC and ABS.

I mean, I get it, they’re nice to have. And to be super competitive at pro-touring events you’re up against other cars with ABS even in the classic or vintage categories.

But it sounds to me like your budget is probably on the light side to campaign a competitive car in any of the major series. Not trying to throw shade I’d be in the same boat!

So then to me, I mean, I’d rather rock the old school car in a vintage category and have fun with it. And just come to terms with the level of competitiveness.
 
You sound like that French guy; "Let them eat ribeye!" Or was that cake, I forget. Either way, better a hamburger than starving. :p

So suggest to me a Mopar alternative that is a RWD coupe that has an EFI V8, manual trans, AC, CC and ABS, costs less than $10K and doesn't weight 4200+ pounds. And note that "faster than..." wasn't a criteria.

And before you say "build one", remember that will cost far more than $10K and will take 5+ years and a minor engineering coup to make CC and ABS work.
According to google, the Challenger RT became available with a manual transmission in 2009 and weighed 4041lbs. Now under $10K would likely be a POS.
 
I think the easiest solution is to consider why you really need CC and ABS.

I mean, I get it, they’re nice to have. And to be super competitive at pro-touring events you’re up against other cars with ABS even in the classic or vintage categories.

But it sounds to me like your budget is probably on the light side to campaign a competitive car in any of the major series. Not trying to throw shade I’d be in the same boat!

So then to me, I mean, I’d rather rock the old school car in a vintage category and have fun with it. And just come to terms with the level of competitiveness.

Not thinking about jumping to an S197 so I can be competitive in anything. It's not about trying to podium at some event.

CC is an absolute must. I like it so much I retrofitted it to the '74. And whatever direction I take, Mustang or Mopar, it will have CC. I want to road trip and drive it all the time, and CC just makes that so much more enjoyable for me.

ABS kind of flows into/from CC when you get into the EFI cars. CC was why I started trying to figure out how to add ABS to the '73 G3 car. The PCM runs CC since it is DBW and it uses the ABS module and wheel speed sensors to do that.

And I think ABS is a huge performance advantage. I believe it is one of the reasons the LM cars are so much faster on an autox course. And even if I never make it to one, I want it.

I don't think I have to have ABS to drive a car, it's not like that. But if I can get into a car that has it, why not? Add that the S197 has a great ABS system, unlike some cars like some of the Vette's and such where people routinely jerk the ABS off the car. So it's a win, win. I fact, if I had a way to run CC without the Mopar ABS, I would retrofit an S197 ABS system to the '73.

There are some aftermarket CC systems coming out, or are just out. Just saw a Dakota Digital ad for something that is supposed to work on the DBW systems. Time will tell.

And yes, budget is light. All the more reason a $5200 S197 that meets all my requirements makes sense, to me.

But it isn't all about budget. Throw that out and let's melt a credit card. Find a clean painted A-Body (preferably a Duster) for $15K, strip it and cut the frame rails out and buy a G-Comp setup for $8K(?), BP 426/T56 setup for $25K, add aftermarket AC for $6K, and maybe Dakota Digital's CC setup is only $500 (as if), and add the aftermarket ABS I have seen advertised for $5K. That's almost $60K and I don't have wheels/tires nor has the rear end been updated, but the real cost is the 2-5 years to build it, if I am lucky. After it is done, it would be cool and way faster than I am capable of driving it. But I've spent all that time building it when what I want to do is drive it. I enjoy the build, but that's too long.

I am all for building something when I can't afford it. But when a car that could do all I want can be bought right now for pennies on the dollar for the above build? Hard not to jump ship.
 
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According to google, the Challenger RT became available with a manual transmission in 2009 and weighed 4041lbs. Now under $10K would likely be a POS.

My '15 Challenger R/T 6M was 4260# across the scales. That might have been with me in it though. Either way, too heavy.

I haven't looked at the cost of an '09-14 Challenger, pretty much stuck to the '15+ since I like the interior so much more. Really like the cars. Generally, the Challengers seem to have held their value better than the Mustangs. But there isn't a one that is worth anything that is selling for $5200. Most of the Challengers I saw last time I looked started at $20K and went up.

I ruled them out due to the weight mostly. The performance potential of a car that is significantly light is so much better. Heck, a "dog" 3V isn't much slower than an R/T and it is down 75 rated HP to the Challenger.
 

According to google, the Challenger RT became available with a manual transmission in 2009 and weighed 4041lbs. Now under $10K would likely be a POS.

You know, it's funny to me that several years ago my wife and I had a long conversation about buying another Challenger. At the time, I was wanting to G3 swap my '74 but was also looking at Challengers for sale on a regular basis. She asked me "if you had both a G3 swapped Duster and a Challenger, which would you drive more", and my response was that I would rather drive the Duster. So "we" decided to build a G3 swapped car and stop looking at Challengers. :rolleyes:
 
Not thinking about jumping to an S197 so I can be competitive in anything. It's not about trying to podium at some event.

CC is an absolute must. I like it so much I retrofitted it to the '74. And whatever direction I take, Mustang or Mopar, it will have CC. I want to road trip and drive it all the time, and CC just makes that so much more enjoyable for me.

ABS kind of flows into/from CC when you get into the EFI cars. CC was why I started trying to figure out how to add ABS to the '73 G3 car. The PCM runs CC since it is DBW and it uses the ABS module and wheel speed sensors to do that.

And I think ABS is a huge performance advantage. I believe it is one of the reasons the LM cars are so much faster on an autox course. And even if I never make it to one, I want it.

I don't think I have to have ABS to drive a car, it's not like that. But if I can get into a car that has it, why not? Add that the S197 has a great ABS system, unlike some cars like some of the Vette's and such where people routinely jerk the ABS off the car. So it's a win, win. I fact, if I had a way to run CC without the Mopar ABS, I would retrofit an S197 ABS system to the '73.

There are some aftermarket CC systems coming out, or are just out. Just saw a Dakota Digital ad for something that is supposed to work on the DBW systems. Time will tell.

And yes, budget is light. All the more reason a $5200 S197 that meets all my requirements makes sense, to me.

But it isn't all about budget. Throw that out and let's melt a credit card. Find a clean painted A-Body (preferably a Duster) for $15K, strip it and cut the frame rails out and buy a G-Comp setup for $8K(?), BP 426/T56 setup for $25K, add aftermarket AC for $6K, and maybe Dakota Digital's CC setup is only $500 (as if), and add the aftermarket ABS I have seen advertised for $5K. That's almost $60K and I don't have wheels/tires nor has the rear end been updated, but the real cost is the 2-5 years to build it, if I am lucky. After it is done, it would be cool and way faster than I am capable of driving it. But I've spent all that time building it when what I want to do is drive it. I enjoy the build, but that's too long.

I am all for building something when I can't afford it. But when a car that could do all I want can be bought right now for pennies on the dollar for the above build? Hard not to jump ship.
The first thing you need to do if you want to implement cruise, ABS and traction control is ditch the factory ECU and go with something like a MaxxECU that can do and or control all of those things. Trying to make all of that work with a stock ECU is a waste of time and money.
 
The first thing you need to do if you want to implement cruise, ABS and traction control is ditch the factory ECU and go with something like a MaxxECU that can do and or control all of those things. Trying to make all of that work with a stock ECU is a waste of time and money.

I guess time will tell. Currently, biggest issue I see is wheel speed sensors and I don't care what system you use that will be an issue.
 
I guess time will tell. Currently, biggest issue I see is wheel speed sensors and I don't care what system you use that will be an issue.
What's your issue with wheel speed sensors? Not that hard to get working once you stop trying to use an OEM ECU.

 
What's your issue with wheel speed sensors? Not that hard to get working once you stop trying to use an OEM ECU.



Ah, that's traction control only, not ABS. About the same thing as Joe is running with his MS stuff.

MaxxECU doesn't do ABS. And I don't believe ABS would be very effective with 5 pulses using the wheel studs even if it did. Certainly not with only one pulse.

Not saying wheel speed sensors are insurmountable, but a setup for ABS isn't going to be as easy as welding the end of a screwdriver to a hub. At the very least, I expect for the front it will result in machining a step into the back of a hub and pressing a tone ring onto it and then mounting the sensor off a bracket. The rear could be easy if an 8.8 with ABS tone rings is used.

@GoodysGotaCuda used the fins inside the brake rotor to run TC. That would have a lot better resolution than the 5 studs, but I wonder though if deflection while cornering would cause issues. I know that one reason guys with S50's swap to the Mach1 knuckle is because the candlestick spindle has enough deflection that they have ABS issues and the much more rigid mach1 knuckle and hub solves that. And those S550 candlestick spindles have the tone ring down at the wheel bearing while the rotor is much further out and probably moves around even more.

It's the whole reason I started my fabricated spindle project. So I could use a hub that has an integrated tone ring. Initially, I just wanted one that I could feed the ABS module so it could register the vehicle speed, but if I am doing one why not do them all and have functioning ABS? Shouldn't need anything but the ABS module and a yaw sensor, at least in theory. I know the S197 ABS doesn't need more than that, nor does the BMW system people retrofit.
 
Ah, that's traction control only, not ABS. About the same thing as Joe is running with his MS stuff.

MaxxECU doesn't do ABS. And I don't believe ABS would be very effective with 5 pulses using the wheel studs even if it did. Certainly not with only one pulse.

Not saying wheel speed sensors are insurmountable, but a setup for ABS isn't going to be as easy as welding the end of a screwdriver to a hub. At the very least, I expect for the front it will result in machining a step into the back of a hub and pressing a tone ring onto it and then mounting the sensor off a bracket. The rear could be easy if an 8.8 with ABS tone rings is used.

@GoodysGotaCuda used the fins inside the brake rotor to run TC. That would have a lot better resolution than the 5 studs, but I wonder though if deflection while cornering would cause issues. I know that one reason guys with S50's swap to the Mach1 knuckle is because the candlestick spindle has enough deflection that they have ABS issues and the much more rigid mach1 knuckle and hub solves that. And those S550 candlestick spindles have the tone ring down at the wheel bearing while the rotor is much further out and probably moves around even more.

It's the whole reason I started my fabricated spindle project. So I could use a hub that has an integrated tone ring. Initially, I just wanted one that I could feed the ABS module so it could register the vehicle speed, but if I am doing one why not do them all and have functioning ABS? Shouldn't need anything but the ABS module and a yaw sensor, at least in theory. I know the S197 ABS doesn't need more than that, nor does the BMW system people retrofit.
I'm fully aware that the single pulse from the screw driver blade is not sufficient for the ABS. My point is it's not that difficult of a thing to over come.

I am also aware that MaxxECU does not control the ABS, but it is what is used to feed the ABS module the needed information to function. It does so over CAN. A MaxxECU can mimic a lot of OEM CAN language so you can actually totally replace the factory ECU. There's not much you can't do with a MaxxECU.

Also remember that just fitting any old wheel speed sensors on and expecting a Ford (or any) ABS module to recognize the signals would be foolish. That goes for any g-meter sensors or anything as well. Especially if you have no way to go into the module to program it and change things. Using an ABS module that can be fed information easily would be the key. You mentioned using a BMW ABS module. That is something the MaxxECU can easily talk to since it has the CAN protocall nativly sitting there waiting to be used. ;)

But if you are needing to do something on a budget you need to be thinking about using an old system from the 90's:

https://www.ffcars.com/threads/deta...ling-testing-1994-1995-abs-on-the-ffr.268018/
 
I'm fully aware that the single pulse from the screw driver blade is not sufficient for the ABS. My point is it's not that difficult of a thing to over come.

I am also aware that MaxxECU does not control the ABS, but it is what is used to feed the ABS module the needed information to function. It does so over CAN. A MaxxECU can mimic a lot of OEM CAN language so you can actually totally replace the factory ECU. There's not much you can't do with a MaxxECU.

Also remember that just fitting any old wheel speed sensors on and expecting a Ford (or any) ABS module to recognize the signals would be foolish. That goes for any g-meter sensors or anything as well. Especially if you have no way to go into the module to program it and change things. Using an ABS module that can be fed information easily would be the key. You mentioned using a BMW ABS module. That is something the MaxxECU can easily talk to since it has the CAN protocall nativly sitting there waiting to be used. ;)

But if you are needing to do something on a budget you need to be thinking about using an old system from the 90's:

https://www.ffcars.com/threads/deta...ling-testing-1994-1995-abs-on-the-ffr.268018/

Here's where I started my path on retrofitting ABS.

Standalone ABS Installs (MK60 and More)

Works as a standalone and doesn't need any PCM input. The S197 setup is the same way, no input needed. Certainly the right yaw sensor, wheel speed seniors and tone rings are important, at least to a point. Wasn't suggesting that any only junk could be hooked up and made to work.
 
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