12:05 Garage- ’70 Duster build

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Here's where I started my path on retrofitting ABS.

Standalone ABS Installs (MK60 and More)

Works as a standalone and doesn't need any PCM input. The S197 setup is the same way, no input needed. Certainly the right yaw sensor, wheel speed seniors and tone rings are important, at least to a point. Wasn't suggesting that any only junk could be hooked up and made to work.
What you really need to ask yourself is the juice of any ABS system really worth the squeeze?

And is the juice of going to the trouble of adapting an OEM ABS system into a standlone system really worth the squeeze especially if you can't configure and adjust the system to work properly?



Why do you feel that you'd want to go to the trouble of getting an ABS system installed and working on your car if you aren't going to use the car to it's potential anyways?
 
What you really need to ask yourself is the juice of any ABS system really worth the squeeze?

And is the juice of going to the trouble of adapting an OEM ABS system into a standlone system really worth the squeeze especially if you can't configure and adjust the system to work properly?



Why do you feel that you'd want to go to the trouble of getting an ABS system installed and working on your car if you aren't going to use the car to it's potential anyways?

100% this! I'm sure ABS helps on an autox to an extent but I've never driven a car on the autox with it, so I wouldn't have any first hand experience. Now, I do see a benefit if you're track racing. There's plenty more opportunity to be doing 75+MPH into a turn than there ever will be on an autox.

I put this in the category of the guy sitting behind his car at a car show that claims to have 1000HP engine, but the car never goes over 20MPH.
 

What you really need to ask yourself is the juice of any ABS system really worth the squeeze?

And is the juice of going to the trouble of adapting an OEM ABS system into a standlone system really worth the squeeze especially if you can't configure and adjust the system to work properly?



I do believe ABS is worth the squeeze. Absolutely, and I don't mean just for competition.

I used to argue that ABS was an advantage only when it was slick, but I have changed my tune. I've seen too many tests of recent where people tried to out brake ABS and failed. I've also seen a test where a police department tested ABS using an impounded Corvette and wrecked it because they lost control during braking after disabling the ABS and trying to emergency brake at increasingly higher speeds. So I now feel that on the street even, a well designed ABS system will be an advantage. Certainly not perfect, there are plenty of Hellcats stuffed into the trees and ditches because people weren't used to 707 HP and ABS couldn't save them, but still an advantage.

I also remember standing next to a vintage competitor at the first Optima event I was able to attend when they had an off on the road course and the guy said it was the big difference between the late model and vintage cars; "They have ABS". And I know for certain the top competitors in the vintage class at the Optima events are running ABS, some even the BMW system.

And I think the reason the LM cars at stuff like Moparty are faster is because of ABS. Not the only reason, but a big one. It's just my opinion, but it's one I feel pretty strongly about even if I can't give concrete evidence to support it. So yes, I think ABS is an advantage in AutoX. Not every system, but a good system (I think) can cut time off the course. I could very well be wrong and have no doubt that a poll of multiple drives will find that at best only some use it. But I would bet that some have learned to used it and are faster than before.

There are junk ABS systems, but I think a good one like the BMW or S197 ones will be a big advantage compared to a car without ABS, in all situations. And both those systems have available options for units with Motorsport logic, but the ones the plebs get aren't far off. I suspect even a mediocre ABS system will be an advantage on the street, while it may not be a good competition fit due to ice mode or overly sensitive logic and such. That said, I think there are also ones that would be a waste to spend the time and money to install.

Traction control is more of a gray area. I have had it save me twice in my Challenger, once on an on ramp with concrete on both sides and the other time coming out of a round about with a car next to me. Maybe I could have saved it if I didn't have TC, but it grabbed both times before I was even aware it was starting to come around. And if I hadn't been able to save it, one would have cost me the car the other other potentially wrecking someone else. At the same time, I see people talking about turning it off for things like AutoX and the 3S challenge. So while I like the idea, I can't speak to whether or not TC would be better in a competition environment.

I don't argue that the aftermarket system is certainly better due to being able to tweak it. But I would bet it is a case of the last 10% costing 100x more and an S197 system will be good enough for someone like me, at a cost I can handle. And if Terry Fair retrofitted his S550 car Trigger with an S197 ABS system and feels like it is a benefit, I bet it is way more than I need. Note that he couldn't make the S550 ABS work standalone so that isn't saying the S197 ABS is better than the S550 system. But it does say it is pretty good.

Why do you feel that you'd want to go to the trouble of getting an ABS system installed and working on your car if you aren't going to use the car to it's potential anyways?

Who says I never will? I don't know what the future holds. My ultimate dream would be to drive a car down to Moparty or something similar and compete. As an addendum to that, going down to the Tail of the Dragon from there would just be over the top.

And as I have argued above, I think that even if the car never sees an autox or road course, it will be a better car with ABS.

But you are helping to reinforce (to me) that an S197 is the easy button as it doesn't require installing ABS. And quite frankly, the idea of driving a late model Mustang 31 hours and 2200 miles one way makes a lot more sense than my '73. Maybe after I get AC, CC and better seats in the '73 it will be more of a wash, but for next summer, I can virtually guarantee that I could do it in a S197 and that the '73 will not be ready.

And just to reinforce the history once again, I didn't start by saying "I want ABS", I started by saying "I want cruise control". The factory PCM runs CC and it seems like a big benefit to setup my swap to take advantage of that. I am sure it has all kinds of OEM safeties and way more logic than an aftermarket setup, and it is clean since it has no additional boxes and wiring beyond the buttons. But it does require a speed message on the CAN bus. It seemed like the easy path was to add the ABS module, even if it was just the circuit board and didn't include the pump, and then to feed a speed signal to the ABS module using a wheel speed sensor on an 8.8. Almost zero fabrication, and no programming. I even found an axle end for the 8.8 that uses a 9" press on bearing (zero leak c-clip eliminator) but allows for the tone ring and sensor to be kept. Then the guy at the Optima event pointed out that the vintage cars are at a disadvantage to the LM cars due to no ABS and I decided that full ABS was only a little more work to implement.

I have since learned that at least the early PCM's can accept the wheel speed sensor input directly since not all of the Chargers and such came with ABS. That would be the easiest path. But I haven't looked hard at it so there might be issues still, and I figured that out after I decided I wanted ABS. So, it's not a path I plan to go down.

One last wrinkle. Since I am working with a G3 Hemi PCM, I am planning to use an SRT8 Challenger ABS module. I can't say for sure yet that it will work standalone like the other ones but I do have the PCM so the only other big thing missing would be the IP. If I can't get it to work, I will make an S197 system work and run an aftermarket CC setup.

In the end, I fully expect to have ABS. Even if it is housed in a Mustang shell.
 
100% this! I'm sure ABS helps on an autox to an extent but I've never driven a car on the autox with it, so I wouldn't have any first hand experience. Now, I do see a benefit if you're track racing. There's plenty more opportunity to be doing 75+MPH into a turn than there ever will be on an autox.

I fully believe that just like on a road course, ABS would allow you to accelerate longer and brake harder going into a corner on an autox. It might be a shorter time but I bet it cuts time off. Maybe even seconds overall.

But I'm just a hack with no experience so maybe I am wrong.

Question for you. Do you run your TC on the autox? If so, how much do you think it helps?
 
I fully believe that just like on a road course, ABS would allow you to accelerate longer and brake harder going into a corner on an autox. It might be a shorter time but I bet it cuts time off. Maybe even seconds overall.

But I'm just a hack with no experience so maybe I am wrong.

Question for you. Do you run your TC on the autox? If so, how much do you think it helps?
I have TC disabled now. MS is just to slow for it to be of any benefit on the autox. That coupled with my larger and better tires now, I just drive through the tire spin at the start. On the 3S, I think it would be beneficial if it was a well performing system. 2 of the guys that finished ahead of me run automatics. Perhaps that helps them get moving without shocking the tire like I do with a manual. The other person ahead of me has a big block with a TKX. Maybe he beat me because his car is heavier, maybe less power, maybe because he has 295 square. Or maybe he's just good at it. I spin the **** out of the tire almost all the way through first gear. I had to pedal it to find traction.
 
Ya'll remember the 6.1 heads I mentioned above? Well, I started making some aluminum chips with them. I'm almost halfway filling soup can with them. Curious to see if I can fill it by the time I'm done.
Stock as cast intake pocket:
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Cleaned up pocket:

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Stock as cast intake runner:
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Cleaned up:
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I also picked up a 6.1 intake from a junk yard. I decided to check the port match. I didn't enlarge the opening at the head.
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I'm not an air flow engineer, but that has to create some type of turbulence when the air leaves the intake. That's the outside of the curve too. I told myself I wasn't going to touch the intake manifold ports, but here I am, not leaving things alone as usual.
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I have TC disabled now. MS is just to slow for it to be of any benefit on the autox. That coupled with my larger and better tires now, I just drive through the tire spin at the start. On the 3S, I think it would be beneficial if it was a well performing system. 2 of the guys that finished ahead of me run automatics. Perhaps that helps them get moving without shocking the tire like I do with a manual. The other person ahead of me has a big block with a TKX. Maybe he beat me because his car is heavier, maybe less power, maybe because he has 295 square. Or maybe he's just good at it. I spin the **** out of the tire almost all the way through first gear. I had to pedal it to find traction.
What are you using for wheel speed sensors with your Gold Box?
 
What are you using for wheel speed sensors with your Gold Box?
I don’t have a gold box, I have the MS3X which is essentially the same thing.
I’m using the back side of the wheel studs.
The spindles I have use the corvette hub so I could get hubs with the speed sensors, but I didn’t since I wasn’t using the TC anymore.
I do think it would help in a drag racing application. I have launch control setup right now and planned to use it at Moparty drag race but to be honest that surface was so slippery on day 1, I don’t know it would have helped. It was roasting through first gear just rolling out. Now day 2 when they had some prep, it hooked. So no need for it there either.
Having VSS data in the ECU is helpful for things like turning radiator fans off at certain speed, it can calculate what gear your in based on speed and rpm. I think it’s doing something else too, I just can’t remember right now.

Did y’all see MS has an add on drive by wire module now? I’m very tempted to get their latest controller and that DBW controller.
 
The spindles I have use the corvette hub so I could get hubs with the speed sensors

The hubs with the 4.5x5 bolt pattern don't have the tone rings. At least not the CPP ones. I talked to a guy about it last year and there was some issue with manufacturing that didn't allow for the tone rings to be retained.

But the GM bolt pattern ones still have a tone ring.
 
The hubs with the 4.5x5 bolt pattern don't have the tone rings. At least not the CPP ones. I talked to a guy about it last year and there was some issue with manufacturing that didn't allow for the tone rings to be retained.

But the GM bolt pattern ones still have a tone ring.
I would get parts store items and drill my own pattern. It's very obvious they just redrilled them. I'm not sure why they say they can't.
 
What advantage would you get with DBW?
I'll start with saying I used to be completely against them, but having some experience with the drive by cable now, I can see some benefits.

Currently I have to use an IAC that is a stepper motor. It has no feedback to the computer. It steps to the position its told to go to. If it misses a step, it thinks its in the right place but its not. This will affect idle RPM. I think closed loop tuning may handle it better, but it isn't completely fool proof. The way to fix this is turn the engine off and restart it. When you turn the key on, the IAC goes to a "home" position to reset itself. What's a missed step you ask? Well if you jump in the car and start cranking quicker than the IAC takes to get home, your step count/position will be off. There are some other scenarios, but you get the point. I rarely have the problem, but if someone is learning to tune, the IAC will drive them crazy. It did for me.
The DBW eliminates the IAC and uses throttle blade movement to control idle. I've never tuned DBW, but it all seems much simpler to me. I'll definitely check out the settings in tuner studio when they release the update. To bring back traction control into this, I'm assuming they will add throttle position into the traction control settings. It's much easier to slow a tire down if you can close the throttle vs. pulling timing.
 
I'll start with saying I used to be completely against them, but having some experience with the drive by cable now, I can see some benefits.

Currently I have to use an IAC that is a stepper motor. It has no feedback to the computer. It steps to the position its told to go to. If it misses a step, it thinks its in the right place but its not. This will affect idle RPM. I think closed loop tuning may handle it better, but it isn't completely fool proof. The way to fix this is turn the engine off and restart it. When you turn the key on, the IAC goes to a "home" position to reset itself. What's a missed step you ask? Well if you jump in the car and start cranking quicker than the IAC takes to get home, your step count/position will be off. There are some other scenarios, but you get the point. I rarely have the problem, but if someone is learning to tune, the IAC will drive them crazy. It did for me.
The DBW eliminates the IAC and uses throttle blade movement to control idle. I've never tuned DBW, but it all seems much simpler to me. I'll definitely check out the settings in tuner studio when they release the update. To bring back traction control into this, I'm assuming they will add throttle position into the traction control settings. It's much easier to slow a tire down if you can close the throttle vs. pulling timing.

Gotcha, makes sense. I thought the DBW throttle bodies still had an IAC, so that's new to me. I wonder if DWB was partly implemented to help with TC.

Not that you have said you wanted it, but I wonder if CC could be added if you had DBW. Most of the aftermarket CC kits for DBW seem to intercept the actual pedal output and feed the PCM their own pedal values to maintain a speed. Could work the same in this case, or maybe the MS module will have it's own CC feature included. Certainly not going to help on an autox, just a curiosity.

I'm actually struggling with DBW right now. I'm helping my brother with his 6.4 swapped '71 Demon and writing tunes to the PCM for him (not tuning, just writing). Somehow we have something broke and the throttle is completely unresponsive even though it worked fine before. Working through some tests, but he is a little more than an hour from me so it's hard to just run over and check for voltages. I think the PCM is seeing something it doesn't like and disabling the throttle, just have to figure out what.
 
Gotcha, makes sense. I thought the DBW throttle bodies still had an IAC, so that's new to me. I wonder if DWB was partly implemented to help with TC.

Not that you have said you wanted it, but I wonder if CC could be added if you had DBW. Most of the aftermarket CC kits for DBW seem to intercept the actual pedal output and feed the PCM their own pedal values to maintain a speed. Could work the same in this case, or maybe the MS module will have it's own CC feature included. Certainly not going to help on an autox, just a curiosity.

I'm actually struggling with DBW right now. I'm helping my brother with his 6.4 swapped '71 Demon and writing tunes to the PCM for him (not tuning, just writing). Somehow we have something broke and the throttle is completely unresponsive even though it worked fine before. Working through some tests, but he is a little more than an hour from me so it's hard to just run over and check for voltages. I think the PCM is seeing something it doesn't like and disabling the throttle, just have to figure out what.
I just read the manual. It's actually a stand alone unit that collects data over can, or you can hard wire sensors into it for RPM and a few other things. I'm pretty sure adding cruise control would be easy. At least, easy for them to integrate. All it needs to do is lock a value that is the throttle input.
 
I'll start with saying I used to be completely against them, but having some experience with the drive by cable now, I can see some benefits.

Currently I have to use an IAC that is a stepper motor. It has no feedback to the computer. It steps to the position its told to go to. If it misses a step, it thinks its in the right place but its not. This will affect idle RPM. I think closed loop tuning may handle it better, but it isn't completely fool proof. The way to fix this is turn the engine off and restart it. When you turn the key on, the IAC goes to a "home" position to reset itself. What's a missed step you ask? Well if you jump in the car and start cranking quicker than the IAC takes to get home, your step count/position will be off. There are some other scenarios, but you get the point. I rarely have the problem, but if someone is learning to tune, the IAC will drive them crazy. It did for me.
The DBW eliminates the IAC and uses throttle blade movement to control idle. I've never tuned DBW, but it all seems much simpler to me. I'll definitely check out the settings in tuner studio when they release the update. To bring back traction control into this, I'm assuming they will add throttle position into the traction control settings. It's much easier to slow a tire down if you can close the throttle vs. pulling timing.
The IAC is the curse to tuning. Sometimes, and I mean sometimes, they work as designed with cold/hot, cranking/running conditions based upon temperature. Then, at times, they won't open at all during cold start, like a carburetor choke that decides to stay open. And sometimes, when driving, when you let off the throttle, they will decide to open and raise your idle RPM 400-600RPM.
Is the fix to buy a $150 IAC? Maybe, but I'm not there yet. When they work as commanded by your tune, they are great. When they don't, not so much.
 
Everybody like pictures, right? While everyone up north is getting snowed in, this is prime racing season for us in the south. This was a couple weeks ago. I drove 80 miles one way to get there. I finished 1st in CAMT and 11th overall.

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Everybody like pictures, right? While everyone up north is getting snowed in, this is prime racing season for us in the south. This was a couple weeks ago. I drove 80 miles one way to get there. I finished 1st in CAMT and 11th overall.

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As you know, I'm done till March-ish. so time think about winter upgrades. Looks outstanding!
 
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