3.09 4 Speed Gear Set Strength

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Tech857

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Can I use the slant 6 / 318 gear set with the 3.09 1st gear behind my built 340 stroker motor?
I want the low 1st gear to offset a 3.23 rear axle ratio. Tranny guy was questioning if the gears were as strong as the 2.66 or 2.47 gear sets. Will they hold up?
 
Never had any trouble with the 3.09. I did have trouble with the second, but I think that was just thousands of miles. Pretty sure the gears are the same material. If you think about a gear like a lever, the bigger lever is easier to use, same with the gear ratio.
 
It’s still an 833. It’s as strong as any other.
That ain't quite true. Some gearsets are stronger than others, same in a rear axle. Generally, lower gear ring / pinions are weaker than higher geared ring/ pinions. "I've always been told" the 3:1 low is weaker. It makes sense because the driver gear on the cluster is smaller
 
Can I use the slant 6 / 318 gear set with the 3.09 1st gear behind my built 340 stroker motor?
I want the low 1st gear to offset a 3.23 rear axle ratio. Tranny guy was questioning if the gears were as strong as the 2.66 or 2.47 gear sets. Will they hold up?
I did that for my 64 Dart w/a modded 70 340. I dropped the clutch at 5-6k rpms for about 50 runs at the 1/4 mile dragstrip. Best run was 13.09 @104mph. 3400# car, never had a problem with the trans anyway.
 
I've had a 3.09 gear set up in my 3880# 68 Roadrunner with 4.10s for at least 15 years. Lots of high rpm launches no problems. Just got to catch 2nd really quickly!
 
That ain't quite true. Some gearsets are stronger than others, same in a rear axle. Generally, lower gear ring / pinions are weaker than higher geared ring/ pinions. "I've always been told" the 3:1 low is weaker. It makes sense because the driver gear on the cluster is smaller


The weakest gear on ANY 833 is 3rd. So it’s true. The 3.09 box is no weaker than any other 833.

As far as gear materiel, any production gear box has the same gear materiel.
 
Long ago I spent some time trying to get the most power possible thru the Saginaw 4spd.
Ratios available were...
2.54/1.81/1.44/1.00
2.84/2.01/1.35/1.00
3.11/2.20/1.47/1.00
3.50/2.16/1.45/1.00
3.50/2.47/1.65/1.00
The thing that might surprise some is that the actual 1st gear in all the above gearsets were all exactly the same, and interchangeable among all the different Saginaw 3 and 4 spd gearsets. The actual difference in the overall 1st gear ratios was in the front of the box, the input shaft and front cluster gear tooth count/ratio.

So at least in the case of my Saginaw example, the actual torque that gets applied to 1st/2nd/3rd gears depends on what ratio was at the front of the box. If you apply 500ftlbs to the input of the 2.54 gearset, 1st gear on the cluster would receive 660ftlbs. Apply that same 500ftlbs to the input of the 3.50 gearset, an identical 1st gear on the cluster would receive 906ftlbs.
...On the 3.50 gearsets, it was always the smaller input shaft gear that failed first.
...On the 2.54 gearsets, it was the small 1st gear end of the cluster that failed first.

Keep in mind that all those Saginaw gearsets use exactly the same 1st gear. If you were able to somehow "beef-up" the gears on the front of the 3.50 gearset to the point that 1st gear would then become the failure point for both gearsets, you would be able to send about 37% more torque to the 2.54 before reaching 1st gear's breaking point.

Even though all the gears themselves may be of equal strength, the ratio at the front of the box makes a difference in how much torque you can apply to the input shaft before reaching the failure point of 1st/2nd/3rd gears.

Grant
 
Long ago I spent some time trying to get the most power possible thru the Saginaw 4spd.
Ratios available were...
2.54/1.81/1.44/1.00
2.84/2.01/1.35/1.00
3.11/2.20/1.47/1.00
3.50/2.16/1.45/1.00
3.50/2.47/1.65/1.00
The thing that might surprise some is that the actual 1st gear in all the above gearsets were all exactly the same, and interchangeable among all the different Saginaw 3 and 4 spd gearsets. The actual difference in the overall 1st gear ratios was in the front of the box, the input shaft and front cluster gear tooth count/ratio.

So at least in the case of my Saginaw example, the actual torque that gets applied to 1st/2nd/3rd gears depends on what ratio was at the front of the box. If you apply 500ftlbs to the input of the 2.54 gearset, 1st gear on the cluster would receive 660ftlbs. Apply that same 500ftlbs to the input of the 3.50 gearset, an identical 1st gear on the cluster would receive 906ftlbs.
...On the 3.50 gearsets, it was always the smaller input shaft gear that failed first.
...On the 2.54 gearsets, it was the small 1st gear end of the cluster that failed first.

Keep in mind that all those Saginaw gearsets use exactly the same 1st gear. If you were able to somehow "beef-up" the gears on the front of the 3.50 gearset to the point that 1st gear would then become the failure point for both gearsets, you would be able to send about 37% more torque to the 2.54 before reaching 1st gear's breaking point.

Even though all the gears themselves may be of equal strength, the ratio at the front of the box makes a difference in how much torque you can apply to the input shaft before reaching the failure point of 1st/2nd/3rd gears.

Grant
Story time. I used to have 67 GMC w/250 I6. I swapped in a Saginaw 4spd from an El Camino. I put a Hurst floor shifter on it, and it was a pretty sweet shifting trans. Man, did I abuse that thing. I could get rubber in the first 3 spds. After about 5 or 6 yrs, I used it to try & pull about 15 stumps with that truck. It was epically brutal, about as bad as anything as you'd see on YouTube, only X15. That finally killed the trans, and the truck.
 
FWIW, Liberty had gearset with a 2.93 first gear for 18 splines. Unlike the Muncie M22, the A833 doesn't need a tall 2.20 first gear and very coarse pitch gears to stay together.
 
If you have a 416streeter, I don't see as how a 2.66 (x3.23= 9.98) first gear should be an issue, unless you just want to parade it. Even still, 4mph with a starter of 9.98, requires an idle speed of 500rpm (27" tires), so good luck with that.
My car has put about 100,000 miles on that Commando gearset, behind a CenterForce clutch and a 367HO cranking over 180psi, with lots and lots of abuse.
IMO;
Run whatcha got, but I highly recommend NOT to run the A833od.
 
I always heard the gears were fine, it was the aluminum housing and harden steel shaft with no bushings. I built a Frankenstein overdrive for my 440, iron case with the overdrive gears, I probably should say I haven’t had an problems “yet”:lol:
 
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I always heard the gears were fine, it was the aluminum housing and harden steel shaft with no bushings
I heard that too. So, after a couple of years of running it, I got a machine shop to install a steel bushing in the front only. Then ran it for a couple more years. I ran that F-body box with the od gearset at some times, or with a 2.66set at other times. and eventually installed a GVod behind it. Using the GV as a splitter, that made it a 7-speed.
But I found that 7-speeds with a high-torque 367, was about 2 gears too many. So I swapped to a Commando gearset. At that time I also installed a Passon alloy box. The GV still splits the 1-2 nicely and Second-over gets me 93=6160 at the top of Second-over with 3.55s. Most of the time tho, I drive it as a 4+1..

I broke several overdrive gears, (operator error); and in one case,
I stripped all the teeth off the input gear; which is why I don't recommend that gearset for a hi-torque engine.
 
Can I use the slant 6 / 318 gear set with the 3.09 1st gear behind my built 340 stroker motor?
I want the low 1st gear to offset a 3.23 rear axle ratio. Tranny guy was questioning if the gears were as strong as the 2.66 or 2.47 gear sets. Will they hold up?
This discussion ventured off onto overdrives, but your question was about the non-overdrive '64-5 and mid-'70's trans with 3.09, 1.92, 1.40, 1 gearset, right?
 
The weakest gear on ANY 833 is 3rd. So it’s true. The 3.09 box is no weaker than any other 833.

That's for sure. I had an A833 converted to a crash-box setup and before long it stripped all the teeth off third gear during a quarter-mile power shift with a built 273. Surprised the heck out of me at the time (I used both 3.09 and 2.66 first gears in the vehicle-the close ratio was better with the 4.56 rear end I was using).
 
This discussion ventured off onto overdrives, but your question was about the non-overdrive '64-5 and mid-'70's trans with 3.09, 1.92, 1.40, 1 gearset, right?
Yes that is what i want to do.
 
I actually am looking for the internals from a good tranny. I have an A body 30 spline output trans but it is beat needs pretty much everything. It has the 2.47 close ratio gear set but it needs all the gears.
 
I put that gearset in a b body transmission that was used with a solid lifter 440 in my brother's '69 Charger and then in a '64 Polara. It took dragstrip abuse with slicks with no problem. The ratios are similar to what many stick drag cars use in a Jerico 4 speed or a G-Force G101 4 speed.
 
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