318 piston's and quench

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Dan the man

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This is my first ever posting. I know a little about the small block 318 but have a few question's. First, a friend of mine think's that I should run a very tight quench ( piston's in the hole 0.002 ). I was thinking about using speed pro flat top's with no valve relief's, they have a compression height of 1.755". Did the math and came up that they'd be in the hole 0.067. Is this to much quench? I don't mind having some taken off the block but if I don't need to I'd rather not. Heads will be swirl port with stock intake valves but 1.600" exhaust valves. I was told these valve sizes are best for port velocity and torque, which torque is what I want as car will be a daily driver. Cam, comp cams XE256H. Don't know exact cc of heads just yet but been told they vary from 58cc to 64cc. At 64cc And 0.040 head gasket I should be around 8.69:1 C.R. Also, does anyone know of a header manufacture that makes 1.500" header's for the small block? Comp com tech and machine shop said that size would be awesome for my combo in making good torque. Any / all help in the building of my 318 would be great. I'm trying to do it right the first time.
 
What year is your block?

If it came with those "swirl" heads, presumably 302 casting, it was probably an LA roller and should had had a compression ratio somewhere near 9.2:1 from the factory.

I'm contemplating a similar build with that same cam.
 
Here's my take.. You should avoid running a piston with no valve reliefs at all. I think there's some confusion on building for quench. It's a combination of the block's existing deck height (not what the books say - but the real measured current height), plus the head gasket used, and the head choice. QUench is only effective if the parts get close. If they are more than .050 or so, there's no real benefit. If there's .040, there's some. If there's .030 it's pretty powerful. Less than .030 is best but parts can start hitting if you're not really good at it...lol. With a tall piston and small bore, I'd want .035-.045. The thinnest easy-to-get head gasket is .028, the regular replacements are .043. So you want a piston that has a valve relief because modern cams have different valve timing and no relief can hit even on small cams. And you want that at zero deck. I'd use the KB-187s. Then you use the head chamber size (get them to 64ccs) to set your static compression. You MUST have the block blueprinted to get the height right, but it gives you a quench of .043 and a static just under 9.5. Keeping it there and even with a small cam you can run low octane pump fuel.
 
Haven't bought a block yet. I've heard the 302 casting's are great for a budget build up. If I used those piston's & left them at 0.067" in the hole would I still have to worry about piston to valve clearance? Would it be a dog with that much quench? I've heard that the KB piston's are more trouble then they are worth, is this true. Also anyone know about 1.500"? Heard they are suppose to be good for torque but I can't find any.
 
Sanderson DD7 / DD8 headers are 1.5". Also I'm using the KB 167 pistons with 302 heads and good quench without decking the block. I am very happy with this combo.
 
Haven't bought a block yet. I've heard the 302 casting's are great for a budget build up. If I used those piston's & left them at 0.067" in the hole would I still have to worry about piston to valve clearance? Would it be a dog with that much quench? I've heard that the KB piston's are more trouble then they are worth, is this true. Also anyone know about 1.500"? Heard they are suppose to be good for torque but I can't find any.

I'm running a stock '69 318, when I pulled the heads the pistons were .039 in the hole. If I remember correctly the stock heads had 69CC chambers. The 302 castings I replaced the stock heads with were also 69CC chambers. My factory stock compression was 9.2:1 (according to the Factory Service Manual). So if your piston are .067 in the hole and you use 302 casting with the stock gasket you will probably have 8.6:1 or maybe 8.7:1 CR.

treblig
 
XE 256 H is an excellent 318 cam, running it in our truck with smooth idle, lots of vacuum, ton's of grunt and a surprising top end.
 
Haven't bought a block yet. I've heard the 302 casting's are great for a budget build up. If I used those piston's & left them at 0.067" in the hole would I still have to worry about piston to valve clearance? Would it be a dog with that much quench? I've heard that the KB piston's are more trouble then they are worth, is this true. Also anyone know about 1.500"? Heard they are suppose to be good for torque but I can't find any.

The problem is the valve timing. The modern cams open the intake valve sooner and faster which gets them closer to the pistons than older stuff. You probably won't have an issue, but you also have no quench. Quench doesn't make it a dog. Lack of compression can make it a dog. KBs are trouble to people who thin they know more than the manufacturer. Set the piston to wall correctly, and set the ring gaps properly, and they are a very good, cheap, and light pistons - with decent valve reliefs so if in the future you want a larger cam there's no issues. You won't notice the difference between a 1 1/2" primary and 1 5/8" primary header.
 
Valve reliefs are generally about 5ccper piston. This is not very significant on an open chamber 360 which might already have a total chamber volume of nearly 100cc and a swept volume of 750cc. However on a 273, with a swept of only 559 and a total chamber with the closed c heads of around 75ish, every cc counts. A 318 is in-between, with a swept of 651,and total chambers from 75 to 90ish; depending on head choices and deck heights.
-My personal engine is a 360 with a swept of 750cc,and a total chamber of 77.5cc, giving a c/r of 10.7:1. The pistons are .005 up, and the gasket is .039, so the quench with Eddies is .034. This is a great combo. I have run cams from 223* to 241*,all with very nice results.All accept full timing with 87 octane E-10. The little 223* cam was able to run fairly lean and on a 12 hour highway blast, I was able to tune into the 40mpgCan, which for southern friends is 36.The quench design works.
One thing I think I would do differently on the next engine is to not machine the decks., instead ordering the correct design, custom pistons.
-A little "secret";The more swept that you start with, the easier it is to make compression. It costs the same for all the machining.Sometimes more is less( costs less).Most of the parts cost the same between engine sizes. Hi-comp pistons for the smaller LAs are often more money than 360 flat tops.Cam selection is more forgiving on the larger bore motors.head selection is broader. You see where Im going, right?
 
I have kb 167 pistons on my 318/w stock open chambers heads.
Pistons come 0.012 up from deck and gasket is 0.039.

Quench area is really small because of open heads (about 1/4 ich ring pistons outer edge.
Because of head design I really don't have effective quench area.

But engine is fairly high compr. Head volume is 65-67cc when I measured it. About 9.5 when I calculated it.

Cam is lunati voodoo 701 second smallest so dynamic comp is fairly high too.
Fun and wery street friendly to drive

If you get some good quench heads (302) and dynamic compression to about 8.0-8.5 should be really nice upgrade to power from stock 318, and you probably don't even lose mpg.s from stock, I didn't. Least when I am not goofing around :)
 
Quench is over rated, IMO. If you can get compression at or around 8.5, that's perfect for a street engine and does not require quench.
 
Quench is over rated, IMO. If you can get compression at or around 8.5, that's perfect for a street engine and does not require quench.

With open chamber heads- I totally agree. With closed chambers, I disagree.
 
With open chamber heads- I totally agree. With closed chambers, I disagree.

Well, I'll put it to you like this. If you already HAVE open chamber heads, it ain't worth the extra 3-6% difference in power to g through all the trouble to find some good close chamber heads. It sure is funny, whenever I recommend the 302 heads, you're one of the naysayers right there on the spot trashin them but whenever they strengthen your argument, hey are the cat's meow.
 
I remember quench type 318 pistons were hard to find when I was planning a small block. I went with a 360 with a step-dish quench piston @ 9.5 c/r, and magnum heads and a little bigger cam. My piston to head clearance is .050 Engine runs very powerful on pump gas. I would recommend ditching the 302 heads and going with a replacement magnum head and headers. Do you have a roller cam block?? Then find a zero deck flat top with valve reliefs or a step dish piston. No dome quench pistons. Adjust quench with head gasket. To take full advantage , have a timing chain tensioner and blue print the whole engine and degree your cam. 318s are great engines being they're internally balanced and have a smaller main journal. Don't overspeed those stock parts! Measure piston to valve clearance and account for part expansion and it may be wise to set quench to .045 max without better rods and pistons.
 
"Well, I'll put it to you like this. If you already HAVE open chamber heads, it ain't worth the extra 3-6% difference in power to g through all the trouble to find some good close chamber heads."
All depends on the individual post. I read Dans post as he had an engine with pistons and a set of 302 heads. My mistake I realized only after Dan said he didn;t have an engine yet. In regard to your numbers - I don't build quench in just for power. I build it in for that additional power on cheaper fuel. While it's hard to justify 10-15hp on a 350hp engine, 10-15hp while being able to run fuel that's $.50 a gallon cheaper, and getting an extra couple mpgs is pretty easy math.


"It sure is funny, whenever I recommend the 302 heads, you're one of the naysayers right there on the spot trashin them but whenever they strengthen your argument, hey are the cat's meow."
Every situation is different, but 302s are rarely anything I'd recommend - unless someone has them already and they're confirmed usable "as is" or already re-done. Aquiring a set, having them inspected, and having the repair work done will cost more than aquiring stock Magnums, or EQ heads that can be had for the same money or less, and will give better performance in adddition to the closed chambers. Sometimes you get something right :D...(IMO of course...lol)
 
getting quench will be major $$$ if its an open chambered heads as the recessed area needs to be machined flat/uniform (they tend not to be as cast) plus quench dome pistons ($$$) & they need machined after mockup/measureing to get the .030-.035" piston to head clearance you are after. With closed chambered heads you'll still need quench dome pistons ($$$) plus mockup/machining. you can get a set of 30 over 318 pistons on eBay for slightly over $100 & you wont have quench so you lose some efficiency but it'll be a much cheaper build. may I ask why you are set on a 318 expecially since you do not have the block. I'd go with a 360 but more info on what you have in mind
 
I'd like the 318 to have around 325 horsepower. This is what I thought of using to reach that goal. 500 C.F.M carb, 4-hole 1/2" carb spacer, performer intake, lifter valley baffle, exhaust heat cross over block off plate's, XE256H comp. cam, "302" casting head's with stock size intake valves but 1.600" exhaust with 3 angle valve job and back cutting the valves. Only milling head's enough to provide true flat surface. Machine deck surface for proper deck height, bore/hone block with torque plate's. Speed-Pro piston's with a 1.755" C.H. ( piston's in bore about 0.067" ). With a head gasket at 0.039 thickness C.R. should be close to 9.0:1 with 62cc head's. I've been told the mopar swirl port head's vary from 55-67cc so I really can't calculate the C.R. till I get the head's and check them. A comp tech told me I need a min. of 8.5:1 for the cam I'm looking at. Don't want to port the head's as this hurt's low end torque and according to my machine shop so would going to the 1.88" intake valve. Cam pull's from 1,000 R.P.M. to 5,200. I'm thinking for the street may never see over 3,800 R.P.M. Would the piston's be too far down the bore to make 325 horsepower? I'd like for it to have awesome torque as well. Any suggestion's ideas I'm open to.
 
With open chamber heads- I totally agree. With closed chambers, I disagree.

Oh quench works and works well. Not too hijack but the 318 in wolfs clothing will have the 1.755 comp ht Sealed Power pistons and the decks cut to zero which will be about .045-.055". We may even stick the pistons out of the deck plus .010" or .020" due to the obese 4.180" bore .059" thick gaskets that came in the gasket set. Gotta kill that crevice volume as much as possible. We will then put a custom CNC dish in the top of the piston to snare a 8.9 comp ratio.

The XE256h is an excellent choice of camshaft. I would rather a Lunati voodoo 256 though. Good luck with your build sounds familiar. J.Rob
 
I'd like the 318 to have around 325 horsepower. This is what I thought of using to reach that goal. 500 C.F.M carb, 4-hole 1/2" carb spacer, performer intake, lifter valley baffle, exhaust heat cross over block off plate's, XE256H comp. cam, "302" casting head's with stock size intake valves but 1.600" exhaust with 3 angle valve job and back cutting the valves. Only milling head's enough to provide true flat surface. Machine deck surface for proper deck height, bore/hone block with torque plate's. Speed-Pro piston's with a 1.755" C.H. ( piston's in bore about 0.067" ). With a head gasket at 0.039 thickness C.R. should be close to 9.0:1 with 62cc head's. I've been told the mopar swirl port head's vary from 55-67cc so I really can't calculate the C.R. till I get the head's and check them. A comp tech told me I need a min. of 8.5:1 for the cam I'm looking at. Don't want to port the head's as this hurt's low end torque and according to my machine shop so would going to the 1.88" intake valve. Cam pull's from 1,000 R.P.M. to 5,200. I'm thinking for the street may never see over 3,800 R.P.M. Would the piston's be too far down the bore to make 325 horsepower? I'd like for it to have awesome torque as well. Any suggestion's ideas I'm open to.

I hate to be a Debbie Downer but without porting the '302 heads your 'teen will never make 325hp. I built a 347 (360 crank in a 318) last year with '302 heads and a Lunati 256 and it barely made 315 hp on my dyno. Your 318 may be 270-280 with your planned build. Porting the already way too small '302 heads will NOT hurt torque. The runner volume is something like 125 cc's which is miniscule. '302's are too small to make decent torque as is. J.Rob
 
Did I miss something here? Youre shooting for 325 hp, but dont intend to rev past 3800? I think you are heading in the wrong direction with this build.
- You might need a turbo318, or just more cubes.
-It seems youre building to a number, instead of to a purpose.
 
My first planned 318 build never came about because was not the right time. So I'm starting over. The car will be a daily driver and will have p/b & a/c, so my question is how much duration @0.050 can I have and still have the p/b @ a/c work. I looked into mopar's P4452759 .430/.450 x 260*/268* I read it's duration @ 0.050 is 221*/228*. Is this too radical for the p/b system? What c.r. would I need? I'm wanting a noticeable idle & give the little teen some extra zip. What would it take to get a honest 300 horsepower out of it @ the flywheel? Would a stall converter be a good idea as well? A local machine shop said to stay away from comp cams XE cams 'cause they can be hard on valve train @ be noisy. Thanks every one
 
I would put aside the idea of getting to a specific HP and focus on being a good daily driver, because getting 300 HP may end up with advice that will not make it a good daily driver. DO you have a limited budget and any specific parts to start with?
 
I would put aside the idea of getting to a specific HP and focus on being a good daily driver, because getting 300 HP may end up with advice that will not make it a good daily driver. DO you have a limited budget and any specific parts to start with?

Budget is limited. I haven't bought any parts yet. But I don't want to buy what I don't need and hopefully do it right the first time. Have any good ideas? Thanks
 
I have lots of ideas that I think are good! LOL YMMV on the worth of these comments.....I re-read some of the original posts and worked through all the numbers, based on the 'daily driver' and 'limited budget': Just go for a simple performance project and work on keeping the torque decent and let the HP fall where it may, which is really where you were going originally.

- Stick with 318 closed chamber heads of some sort to maintain some CR for torque at lower end....easy to say, but I can't add anything to what has been said about the costs and other issues. The Magnum heads seem to be the best of the lot with limited mods. (I would not get caught up in using the swirl port 302's if the later heads did not crack as much.)

- I'd cc them to see what the chambers are, shave them and the intake maybe .020" to get the SCR up to around 9:1 with the Speedpros. If the budget does not allow, don't bother with the head shaving, it is not going to add all that much. Put in the larger valves if the budget allowed, and especially do a multi-angle valve job with a steep cut right below the valves to help the low end flow as much as you can. (We have 3 local machine shops with Serdi machines that can do that.) But you are going to have to take those ideas and go to your local machine shop and ask about the cost and make that trade-off.... it is a waste of time to try to predict that here.

- Get the highest compression height stock type cast or hypereutectic pistons and moly top rings. Sounds like you have researched that with SpeedPros. The only thing I can't find on the SpeedPros is their weight and pin weight to see if the engine will need to be re-balanced.

- Use the Felpro 1008 head gaskets

- Decking the block to get better CR and quench is something you need to price out for yourself at a local machine shop. Going for quench is a good thing to do, but adds another level of complexity and cost to the build. That is the first thing I would drop for a budget build. You are up near 9:1 true SCR and that will be purty good for a budget build SBM with no quench.

- Keep with stock rods and crank

- Dual plane intake, headers and 600 cfm 4 bbl carb

- Cam with a 256 or 262 duration; IMHO the 268 is on the cusp of not being good for the PB's; others may have better info on that. The 1.6 rocker ratio of the Magnum head will make these cams seem a little bigger. Maybe just 340 springs to keep the cost down there.... IF they fit on the Magnum heads, which I have never looked into.

- New oil pump and timing chain, bearings, damper, etc. I.e., spend money on good parts so it will assemble well and be reliable so you have a good daily driver.

This is not the fire breathing end-all build, just something basic, but your did say 'limited budget'. Even this realistically could run in the $2000-3000 range even with you assembling it. But it will be a good engine, and I think you will like it on the street. It is not really any different from your original plan or from anything else that has been said. It sounds more than anything like you need some help in comparing and contrasting and putting the costs and benefits in perspective.

BTW, do you think you could spend $1300 for a new set of heads? (That is a serious question....) That will put you in a different league with this engine. I am thinking you are more of a bolt-on-the-parts type of enthusiast, and something like the Indy LA-X heads from Hughes seem to be perfect for your situation. But, then again, to really use those heads to their potential, it starts departing from the simple daily driver with PB's, and there will be other expenses to get to that next level of performance. THAT is the problem with that next level of performance..... there usually is an associated significant step jump on costs to really get there. You need better head flow to get to the 300+ HP range, so that is the problem with getting obsessed with an HP number. I'll say it again.... you are going to enjoy the simpler build.

BTW, do you have the 318 engine now? What year?
 
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