cool beans then.
340 cooling
- Thread starter mad dog
- Start date
-
No it’s not, he has his radiator that’s recored with max cool core.
Last edited:
The 1700 would be correct if you are going for the look of a 1971 Duster.
AJ/FormS
68 Formua-S fastback clone 367/A833/GVod/3.55s
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2014
- Messages
- 26,611
- Reaction score
- 13,846
Here's my super-reliable combo, for your perusal;
>As for fan-clutches;
I run a HD Thermostatic fan that came from FORD, off an early 2000s pick-up truck. It keeps the coolant in the zone of 205>207, no matter what.
>As for the fan; I run that honking big, 7-blade, hi-attack angle, all-steel unit I think came off a Mopar A/C car .
>As for water speed, my system is underdriven, cuz it's a 4-speed, and the rpm is always up, unless it's idling.
>As for rad size, I run a 26" from a 73-Swinger, in the virgin slanty rad-support, with a shroud, and an expansion-tank.
>As for the Pump, I run a Milodon hi-flow, which is just an 8-vane with an anti-cavitation plate, and an oversize shaft, to support that heavy fan/clutch combo.
>as for a stat, I run a Milodon Hi-flow .
>and all molded hoses, with a restricted bypass, and the heater-core is the main bypass..
Now I gotta tell ya that I also run hypereutectic pistons, and with all those cooling tricks, I still had overheat issues, with the DC 292/509/108 cam.
Finally in desperation, I pulled the engine down, increased the skirt clearance to ~.004, and the top gap to .032, the second to .028, and left the oil-rings at .026 which is the KB spec for Street NA.
Badaboom, that cured it.
But Soon
that 292 cam was history, I just couldn't make it do all the things I wanted it to do; In it's place was a 270/276/110. and the CCP was now up to 195psi.
the following winter, I recut the decks for a pop-up of .007, to use 039 gaskets, for a Quench of .032, up from 028.
And
This engine, with OOTB Eddie heads, does not care about Idle-timing. In fact, I used to run this 270 combo'd unit in parades at 500rpm/5*advance to get down to 3.5mph, with a 3.09 low gear, and 3.55s........ with a slightly underdriven pump no less.
Why so retarded?
Well that's where I ended up with the 292 cam, trying to get my 367 cubed/750DP/3650pound car, to pull itself with a 4-speed, on the curb-idle screw, ...... without bucking. It was terrible and I pulled that cam. whereas the regular Idle-timing for that 292 combo was ~14.
That 292 cam gave way to the 270, and when that one dropped lobes, I replaced it with a 276/110, which has been in there since 2004.
Thru it all, the Clutched fan on the HD pump, has been doing it's job like a champ, with the 1973 26"rad in the unmodified Slanty core-support, with a nothing but an expansion tank for help. That rad is now over 50+ years old..............
Oh, the stat is a 195. lol.
I run the 195 stat now, cuz that is what it took to swell up the pistons to cure the piston-slap after warm-up, now that they are at .004@room-temperature. In retrospect, I could likely have left the pistons tighter, but since the block was already at the machine shop for additional decking; I wasn't taking any chances. What I'm suggesting is that the KB skirt spec of .0015>.0020, might have been fine; IDK.
The car
went 93 in the Eighth with the 230* cam, and idles along all day at 4mph maybe a lil less, puts up with repeated blasts to 7200, and used to, before overdrive, cruise at up to 65=3000rpm, for hours. With overdrive it has been as low as 65=1600, but eventually settled at 65= 2240, where it has been now, since ~2004. so,
I can't complain at how it turned out.
I'm not telling you that this is what you need to run.
I am telling; you that this is where I ended up, which is, a rock-solid cooling system. If I don't see steam coming from under the hood, I never look at the gauge anymore.
----------------------------------------------
As to Idle-timing;
You can't hardly give your engine too much idle timing. Mine likes 30 degrees or more. But just try to drive it like that with a manual trans.
At idle, for a street-car to be able to drive away, your transfer slots need to be set pretty close to the same exposure, no matter what the cam may be, in my case between the 292 and the 270. I and most others have found that, a slot exposure under the Primaries of about square to slightly taller than wide, will get you into the ballpark. Then, to set your idle-speed, you use Idle Timing and or, Idle-air bypass.
Once you have the transfers working, the engine won't much care about Idle-Timing, set it at whatever doesn't bang into gear (auto trans), or with a manual trans, at whatever gets you moving without stalling or, with a lightweight flywheel, keeps the engine ticking over half-decently smooth. But, if you want to idle in thru the front gate, with that lumpy big-cam sound, you are gonna have to retard the timing. With a manual-trans, more-timing just means you can't drive slow. The power pulses with typical auto-trans timing, are just too powerful, and riding the brake will just make her jumpy.
So, here's how I cured that.
I installed a dash-mounted, dial-back timing retard module, with a working range of 15 degrees. My normal Idle timing is 12>14 to satisfy the transfers. But to drive slow, I can retard, in my case, up to 9 degrees, getting it down to 5*. I use the 6 remaining degrees to advance the Cruise-timing which is normally about 54/55*. but the timing unit can make that, up to 61*, for fine-tuning fuel-economy .
and yes, my Power-timing is usually 34*, but I can add or subtract timing, as the situation might warrant, right from the driver's seat.
Again, I'm not telling you that you must have this tool. I'm just saying what a great tool it is, cuz, in most cases, you cannot make the factory distributor do what needs to be done.
Happy HotRodding
>As for fan-clutches;
I run a HD Thermostatic fan that came from FORD, off an early 2000s pick-up truck. It keeps the coolant in the zone of 205>207, no matter what.
>As for the fan; I run that honking big, 7-blade, hi-attack angle, all-steel unit I think came off a Mopar A/C car .
>As for water speed, my system is underdriven, cuz it's a 4-speed, and the rpm is always up, unless it's idling.
>As for rad size, I run a 26" from a 73-Swinger, in the virgin slanty rad-support, with a shroud, and an expansion-tank.
>As for the Pump, I run a Milodon hi-flow, which is just an 8-vane with an anti-cavitation plate, and an oversize shaft, to support that heavy fan/clutch combo.
>as for a stat, I run a Milodon Hi-flow .
>and all molded hoses, with a restricted bypass, and the heater-core is the main bypass..
Now I gotta tell ya that I also run hypereutectic pistons, and with all those cooling tricks, I still had overheat issues, with the DC 292/509/108 cam.
Finally in desperation, I pulled the engine down, increased the skirt clearance to ~.004, and the top gap to .032, the second to .028, and left the oil-rings at .026 which is the KB spec for Street NA.
Badaboom, that cured it.
But Soon
that 292 cam was history, I just couldn't make it do all the things I wanted it to do; In it's place was a 270/276/110. and the CCP was now up to 195psi.
the following winter, I recut the decks for a pop-up of .007, to use 039 gaskets, for a Quench of .032, up from 028.
And
This engine, with OOTB Eddie heads, does not care about Idle-timing. In fact, I used to run this 270 combo'd unit in parades at 500rpm/5*advance to get down to 3.5mph, with a 3.09 low gear, and 3.55s........ with a slightly underdriven pump no less.
Why so retarded?
Well that's where I ended up with the 292 cam, trying to get my 367 cubed/750DP/3650pound car, to pull itself with a 4-speed, on the curb-idle screw, ...... without bucking. It was terrible and I pulled that cam. whereas the regular Idle-timing for that 292 combo was ~14.
That 292 cam gave way to the 270, and when that one dropped lobes, I replaced it with a 276/110, which has been in there since 2004.
Thru it all, the Clutched fan on the HD pump, has been doing it's job like a champ, with the 1973 26"rad in the unmodified Slanty core-support, with a nothing but an expansion tank for help. That rad is now over 50+ years old..............
Oh, the stat is a 195. lol.
I run the 195 stat now, cuz that is what it took to swell up the pistons to cure the piston-slap after warm-up, now that they are at .004@room-temperature. In retrospect, I could likely have left the pistons tighter, but since the block was already at the machine shop for additional decking; I wasn't taking any chances. What I'm suggesting is that the KB skirt spec of .0015>.0020, might have been fine; IDK.
The car
went 93 in the Eighth with the 230* cam, and idles along all day at 4mph maybe a lil less, puts up with repeated blasts to 7200, and used to, before overdrive, cruise at up to 65=3000rpm, for hours. With overdrive it has been as low as 65=1600, but eventually settled at 65= 2240, where it has been now, since ~2004. so,
I can't complain at how it turned out.
I'm not telling you that this is what you need to run.
I am telling; you that this is where I ended up, which is, a rock-solid cooling system. If I don't see steam coming from under the hood, I never look at the gauge anymore.
----------------------------------------------
As to Idle-timing;
You can't hardly give your engine too much idle timing. Mine likes 30 degrees or more. But just try to drive it like that with a manual trans.
At idle, for a street-car to be able to drive away, your transfer slots need to be set pretty close to the same exposure, no matter what the cam may be, in my case between the 292 and the 270. I and most others have found that, a slot exposure under the Primaries of about square to slightly taller than wide, will get you into the ballpark. Then, to set your idle-speed, you use Idle Timing and or, Idle-air bypass.
Once you have the transfers working, the engine won't much care about Idle-Timing, set it at whatever doesn't bang into gear (auto trans), or with a manual trans, at whatever gets you moving without stalling or, with a lightweight flywheel, keeps the engine ticking over half-decently smooth. But, if you want to idle in thru the front gate, with that lumpy big-cam sound, you are gonna have to retard the timing. With a manual-trans, more-timing just means you can't drive slow. The power pulses with typical auto-trans timing, are just too powerful, and riding the brake will just make her jumpy.
So, here's how I cured that.
I installed a dash-mounted, dial-back timing retard module, with a working range of 15 degrees. My normal Idle timing is 12>14 to satisfy the transfers. But to drive slow, I can retard, in my case, up to 9 degrees, getting it down to 5*. I use the 6 remaining degrees to advance the Cruise-timing which is normally about 54/55*. but the timing unit can make that, up to 61*, for fine-tuning fuel-economy .
and yes, my Power-timing is usually 34*, but I can add or subtract timing, as the situation might warrant, right from the driver's seat.
Again, I'm not telling you that you must have this tool. I'm just saying what a great tool it is, cuz, in most cases, you cannot make the factory distributor do what needs to be done.
Happy HotRodding
I agree with some of that. I'm not sure about all 340 cars getting the 26" radiator. A/C small-blocks did get a 26" radiator.
High flow water pumps can make an improvement if your radiator has extra heat dissipating capacity. If your radiator is already maxed out, pushing the coolant flow through it quicker won't make it shed more heat.
The Stewart Components thermostat is the best high-flow thermostat available. It's less critical on an engine with a bypass hose like a Mopar small-block than it is on an engine without a bypass like a small Chevy.
A mechanical fan is a power sucking, noisy nuisance. A thermostatic clutch fan will decouple the blades saving fuel when you're traveling at highway speeds when forced airflow is enough to maintain engine cooling. You can feel the difference in power and hear the difference not having to deal with the air wooshing sound all the time. Not to mention less danger of a fan exploding at high RPM's.
Never skip the shroud. The fan is NEVER pulling air through the entire radiator without a shroud. I don't care how close it is. The fan blades should be half in/half out of the shroud looking at the fan from the side. The tighter the fit of the blade tips to the opening of the shroud the better it will work. You have to leave enough clearance to allow for engine movement though. A stock shroud usually does an adequate job especially when paired with a stock fan. The OEM's spent a LOT of money getting the cooling systems to work correctly. Take advantage of that investment.
Also remember that keeping the engine running dead cold isn't the goal. You want it to be able to warm up quickly yet have enough reserve cooling capacity that it doesn't overheat when exercised.
A note on aluminum radiators: three and four row radiators are not superior when dealing with aluminum radiators. A lot of the cheap ones you'll see on eBay are 3 or 4 rows. Look for the ones that are two row with the same core thickness as the 3 and 4 row radiators. These have 1" or 1-1/4" wide tubes that do a vastly better job of dissipating heat than 3 or 4 rows of smaller diameter tubes. More rows was the way to increase cooling capacity with copper/brass radiators of old. High performance aluminum radiators typically only have TWO (2) rows. These will typically be slightly more expensive than the 3/4 row units. I have had good luck with the Champion brand which can usually be found reasonably priced.
You have some decisions to make. Don't know exactly what you're radiator is. There can be a space issue when dealing with aluminum vs the cast iron pump, 3/4" shorter. They both require different radiators. Robert Shaw thermostat, the large one, 370 ? Flowkooler pump over the Milodon. Hayden #2947 clutch drive?
2863 216 or 215 fan, and yes, fan shroud. Straight fans are noisey.
2863 216 or 215 fan, and yes, fan shroud. Straight fans are noisey.
I agree with this 100% The new high quality aluminum radiators use much larger tubes, just 2 rows of them, but offer superior cooling in this configuration. All the cooling problems that I have seen with aluminum radiators are associated with the an aluminum radiator with brass copper style narrow tubes (and electric fans).
Professor Fate
Push the button, Max...
Just my feelings on fans and some misconceptions about them.
Stay away from flex fans. I've seen them let go, and you don't want to be anywhere near one.
Viscous drive fans may take less power to drive (why they're used with A/C), but they also cool less efficiently due to the viscous coupling- basic engineering tradeoff. They try to make up for the difference by using a more aggressive blade pitch, but is minimal in any gains since this in turn creates more rotational resistance and increased slippage. Quieter? Possibly, but remember- the "noise" is caused by wind speed. If it's not making as much sound, it's not moving as much air.
Fixed fans are the simplest, most effective fan. If they weren't, they wouldn't have seen continued use after viscous fans were introduced. Noisy? Depends on your definition of noise. Don't complain about a noisy fan, and then brag about your Flowmaster 40s. A fixed fan generates zero noise when the car is at cruising speed, and at idle generates no more noise than the set of electric fans on your new car.
Which brings up electric fans. I can count on one hand the number of aftermarket electric fans that are worth anything. The most effective units are OEM based- Contour, Charger, Corvette and the like. And you'll hear 'em at idle.
In short, if you're moving air, you'll have noise. If you want dead quiet, buy a Prius.
Stay away from flex fans. I've seen them let go, and you don't want to be anywhere near one.
Viscous drive fans may take less power to drive (why they're used with A/C), but they also cool less efficiently due to the viscous coupling- basic engineering tradeoff. They try to make up for the difference by using a more aggressive blade pitch, but is minimal in any gains since this in turn creates more rotational resistance and increased slippage. Quieter? Possibly, but remember- the "noise" is caused by wind speed. If it's not making as much sound, it's not moving as much air.
Fixed fans are the simplest, most effective fan. If they weren't, they wouldn't have seen continued use after viscous fans were introduced. Noisy? Depends on your definition of noise. Don't complain about a noisy fan, and then brag about your Flowmaster 40s. A fixed fan generates zero noise when the car is at cruising speed, and at idle generates no more noise than the set of electric fans on your new car.
Which brings up electric fans. I can count on one hand the number of aftermarket electric fans that are worth anything. The most effective units are OEM based- Contour, Charger, Corvette and the like. And you'll hear 'em at idle.
In short, if you're moving air, you'll have noise. If you want dead quiet, buy a Prius.
IMHO - the radiator needs no fan above 35 miles an hour or so. The air moving through the radiator from the vehicle speed makes the fan superfluous. Basically the wind is actually spinning the fan so it takes no engine power at that point. That's why clutch fans work so well.
great info guys... i have a fresh re-core on the 945 22" HD radiator and the factory shroud and the 18" 215 or 216 fan, i forget..
im leaning towards the 1700 flowkooler and the Robert Shaw #370, not sure what temp i should get also the Hayden HD clutch. Im not sure what clutch yet, i guess it depends on how much room i will have...
im leaning towards the 1700 flowkooler and the Robert Shaw #370, not sure what temp i should get also the Hayden HD clutch. Im not sure what clutch yet, i guess it depends on how much room i will have...
Uncle Bob
Shiny paint causes stress.
I'm looking for confirmation that the 216 fan recommended in this thread will fit a Duster with OER shroud and a 22" radiator. Thanks in advance,
Johnny Dart
Well-Known Member
Not from the factory.
72 down came with 2 radiator sizes. 19" & 22". The only difference in a standard radiator and HD (AC) radiator were the number of rows. So.............
Last edited:
Johnny Dart
Well-Known Member
I read the entire 3 pages, and absolutely nothing was discussed about coolant passages in the block. In my opinion, this is the most important thing to start with when machining the block. Coolant passages can be completely blocked, rendering every trick water pump, fan, radiator, thermostat, useless. Make sure the shop douches all the passages out with wire brushes, air, etc. This is the no.1 place to start.
To the OP, if your still in the process, make sure the shop does this !!!!!!
Also, the correct head gasket, and installed correctly is imperative. Using the incorrect head gasket, or installing it in the incorrect way can easily block coolant passages.
It has been done. .02
After this, your car should run just fine with nothing but up to snuff factory parts from Ma ........
To the OP, if your still in the process, make sure the shop does this !!!!!!
Also, the correct head gasket, and installed correctly is imperative. Using the incorrect head gasket, or installing it in the incorrect way can easily block coolant passages.
It has been done. .02
After this, your car should run just fine with nothing but up to snuff factory parts from Ma ........
Ok. I was the second owner and the only part on the car that wasn’t OEM was the carb.
I lost an engine mount and broke the shroud.
It took a 26 inch shroud.
yeah, yeah, we get it. you owned a 1 of 1 demon. relax
Johnny Dart
Well-Known Member
Interesting. Pics would be awesome.
Interesting. Pics would be awesome.
Sadly I no longer have the car. It’s long gone. What’s even worse is the car came through with 10.5:1 pistons, a steel crank and 2.02 valves.
Since it had never been touched and I had all the paperwork, I could have run that car in Stock Eliminator it would have been classed with the low compression small valve cars.
I was young and stupid.
-
Similar threads
