340 with big hopes

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littleman66

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how can i make a 340 nuts? i want at least 450HP, with out using anying nos or buying a new set of eddy heads.

should i just forget this? or is doable?

i dont want to spend to much money...maybe mix and match parts to get the best power?
 
You'll look for about 9.5-1 comp. ratio with iron heads. more compresion is possible with good gas. More than that will require a large cam to bleed off cyl. pressure,, and port the heads with 2.02-1.60 valves to flow about the equal of the Edel. heads. A good pocket porting and runner work should do with early or later heads, not smog years. They'll need some full port work to get where they need to be.
Magnum heads excel for this type of project.
Just beware that the rocker ratio is 1.6 vs the 1.5 of LA heads.

The cam should be around the 240+ duration @ .050. Get as much lift as you can get.
I would go with 1-3/4 tubes to let'er breath. 3 inch pipe would be best here.
 
Rumblefish's combo is a good one and will get you there. As he said, port the heads you will need around 245-250 cfm. And .525-.550 lift (at the valve), a small solid, with 1.6 rockers, 1 3/4 headers, Air Gap, Holley strip Dom. or M1 single plane, 750 carb, 9.5-10.0, windage tray, File fit (cut) the rings yourself, Check ALL clearances and end play's. AND..degree the camshaft. Good luck and keep us posted. Terry.
 
GotDart said:
These two phrases are contradictory.

hey you know what i mean....i just dont want to be going out buying new heads and sutff



rumblefish...you helped me alot...thanks for your time :)
 
littleman66 said:
hey you know what i mean....i just dont want to be going out buying new heads and sutff

Actually, no I don't. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you really didn't give us a lot of info:

you have a 340
you must already have some kind of heads because you don't want to buy new ones
you want min 450hp
you don't want nitrous
you don't want to spend too much

Hmmm, what did I miss?

Unless you are a master head porter and own your own machine shop, the heads that Rumblefish described can easily cost as much or more than a set of new Edlebrock heads. So how much $$ is too much?
 
I guess what he should have said is, I have this amount of money to spend and would like to get 450 HP if possiable, is this doable.
The statement that you don't want to use smogger heads without porting them, and use the magnums, well to me the magnums are a smogger head, or emission head which smogger and low emission heads are one and the same. Just different terminology. Just as high swirl and high flow mean the same.
So now how much money are you going to spend on this project?


BJR Racing
 
The statement that you don't want to use smogger heads without porting them, and use the magnums, well to me the magnums are a smogger head, or emission head which smogger and low emission heads are one and the same. Just different terminology. Just as high swirl and high flow mean the same.
I would like to clear that up since I think you may be getting that from me.
The way I see it, I myself like the older X J series head. OK, old school thinking, but that happens sometimes. (LOL) The heads can be ported out pretty well.
The newer heads, for example, a '79 set have the lil'port hole for smog purposes. Also a exhaust port that doesn't seem to respond as well to porting as a earlier head.
The Magnum heads flow pretty well to begin with and do well when ported.
Smog head or not, it's the performance of the head as cast or ported that your after.
Littleman66
If you can have heads ported for you or port them yourself, increased air flow is what you'll need. Porting iron heads is a long hard process that will take about the same amount of money (Or more) as a new set of edelbrock heads. If you do not allready have a set of non-smog year heads (Mid 70'-80's) then I would price out the work from scratch (Iron heads) and compare it to out of the box Edel. heads, gaskets and bolts.
That will be the second most expensive part. The short block will be first.
 
Rumblefish360,
I agree with you about the heads (eariler X,J) I just drilled the exhaust hole to 1/4" and plug it on the mid 70s heads. All the intake ports seem to flow similiarly between the different heads with some work done to them. Even though the exhaust ports may flow better than the older versions, it's how much you can get in the intake that really counts on a naturally aspirated engine, as you only need 65-70% air flow on the exhaust to be efficent on a head. Yes I've seen higher flows and more efficent exhaust ports in the 85-90% range but these were more suited to very high and sustained RPMs such as NASCAR, then they showed a HP gain. But at the cost of low HP due to over scavaging at low rpms with the camshafts used. So its a purpose built thing more than anything. Also the factories/manufactures made the exhaust better because of the stringent rules and laws from the federal government for cleaner air, thus if the exhaust can do more, then along with the 02 sensors to help control fuel made the engines more responsive. A better flowing exhaust port by it's self doesn't make more hp.
One more thing the shape of the chambers has alot to do with how a port responds weather it's a new style or old. Just as the 302/318 heads have a faster burning chamber than the old ones did, so it's not just quench either. Quench has one job and it's to push all gasses to the low pressure spot to be burned thus being more effiecnt. But this isn't to say that the magnum head or chamber shape is better than the heart shaped chamber, this would be more related to bore size and port shape.



BJR Racing
 
rumblefish360 said:
I would like to clear that up since I think you may be getting that from me.
The way I see it, I myself like the older X J series head. OK, old school thinking, but that happens sometimes. (LOL) The heads can be ported out pretty well.
The newer heads, for example, a '79 set have the lil'port hole for smog purposes. Also a exhaust port that doesn't seem to respond as well to porting as a earlier head.
The Magnum heads flow pretty well to begin with and do well when ported.
Smog head or not, it's the performance of the head as cast or ported that your after.
Littleman66
If you can have heads ported for you or port them yourself, increased air flow is what you'll need. Porting iron heads is a long hard process that will take about the same amount of money (Or more) as a new set of edelbrock heads. If you do not allready have a set of non-smog year heads (Mid 70'-80's) then I would price out the work from scratch (Iron heads) and compare it to out of the box Edel. heads, gaskets and bolts.
That will be the second most expensive part. The short block will be first.

why will they cost jsut as much as a new set of eddy heads? if i do them my self....i dont understand...

the thing is i dont have heads yet....i dont want to go out and get a pair that i wish i would of waited. im not in a hurry since i jsut started my dart this winter.....

so far i found someone with a pair of heads with the 2.02 valves in it....


i have a little expirence with porting heads...i helped my friend port his 454 heads in mechanics. it took a damn long time but im sure it will be worth it.
 
BJR Racing excellent post. Glad were on the same page. For me (or you) to write up a full page report on heads and the tech, specs and why and where fore what to do and don'ts could take up a lot of space.
(LOL, think about it.)
But your post is very good. Most people think more exhaust flow is better and overlook the over scavaging aspect of it all.
They see cams from (In example Hughes) with larger exhaust durations and lift to work with there heads and fail to realize the potential pit fall of weak low end. When the people use stock heads, the split cams are great to aid in the factorys weak exhaust. Then the idea of porting the head to help comes in and so on and so forth until the street car sucks down low. While the race car can ignore this, a street car should not.

Not to put the pressure on this suggestion, but maybe you should write up a little thing on this topic. A general writing can go very far. You write well enuff and I can see you have a good understanding of how and what works.
Just thinking out loud.

littleman66 said:
why will they cost jsut as much as a new set of eddy heads? if i do them my self....i dont understand...

the thing is i dont have heads yet....i dont want to go out and get a pair that i wish i would of waited. im not in a hurry since i jsut started my dart this winter.....

so far i found someone with a pair of heads with the 2.02 valves in it....


i have a little expirence with porting heads...i helped my friend port his 454 heads in mechanics. it took a damn long time but im sure it will be worth it.
littleman66; If you do them yourself, then the should not cost alot. However, since where here and not face to face, I miss things in print sometimes and suggest or warn people of pit falls dispite what they may have said before. I see the forum as a great place to have a meeting of the minds for ideas and what not. It's just a convo. that takes days or weeks to have as a posed to a 15-20 min. convo in person.
If you can do the machine work yourself, thats even more savings. Not the deal is looking great!
However, I took it from a stand point of you possibly having all the work farmed out to a machinest and doing none yourself. This can be expensive. Do some searching on cost vs do it yourself and a purchase of OOTB heads and other material to complete the job.
 
Rumblefish360, Between the porting and the machine shop I stay very busy, but I will consider the thought though.


BJR Racing
 
I hear ya. I'm only on line when the kids are not jumping up and down or the wife isn't studying (Collage RN)
I'm lucky enuff to be able to change sgifts and days off and have easy going children. But when play time comes, it comes. Hot wheels, catch, hide and seek. etc...
 
Man66.

Believe these guys. A set of Eddy's is a cheaper than a fully prepped set of factory iron. Even if you do the porting yourself. I've done my own and cut much of the costs and the Eddy's are still a better deal.
 
lenwiler, Maybe I need what your smoking, eddys cost more out of the box than someone who has stock irons? Then your saying that it's going to cost more to do the stock irons than the eddys? Come on now, for the same cost for the eddys I can do better than the eddys and less with more potential. OK lets say you have a set of eddys...........$1200.00 minimum complete, Ahhhhhhhhhh ...................but you have to do work to them..............OK .....................$300-500.00 to get race ready, or street ready, covering all bases. So now you have $1500.00-1800.00 in them. Hummmmmmmmmmmmm.....I already have the irons and now I can do $1500.-1800.00 to them, and were the same. But for someone who wants 450-500 HP eddys aren't the way to go. You'll spend less in the stock iron than the eddys and put $400.00-500.00 in your pocket. If folks haven't noticed prices are going up, look at your gas pump, this is a reflection on everything, so lets not kid our selves here you can't buy speed equipment cheap and get performance. If you want 500 HP then spend the money, all I'm saying is that you don't have to spend the money in the heads as the eddys have too big a port runner and will lose velocity and low end torque. If this is the case then my option would be for the 177 commandos as they will take all the stock hardware and flow much better than the eddys. Been there done that.


BJR Racing
 
BJR, Let me pull on your exp. in this. In your opinion;
What is a good iron head to get, LA series.
Is there one to leave on the shelf?
Is there one that responds to basic porting better than the others?

Peoples;
All in all, I figure if one is going to try to port the head themselfs, you'll be way ahead of the game. If not, then the choice of paying someone to port the iron head could be expensive. It also depends on what your starting with as well IMO.
Lesser flowing heads will need more time to grind. This is money. Gotta pay the man. He ain't doin it for free!
The Edelbrocks are a good street head OOTB and can be ported for a nice gain. But thats more money on top of the intail purchase of the heads. $1200+ dollors for the head and then the porting thereafter.
If you can port heads, your in luck of saving mucho money. If you don't know how to port heads, spending the money on a die grinder and bits to practice on junk yard heads will pay in the long run. It will also have you understanding why it costs what it does to port out your iron.
Until then, everybody do some homework and chose wisely, and listen to the head porters.
 
here's my .02.. On the original question...if you have the cores, that is heads, rods, crank, and block, then a new assembled performance engine making 450hp is about 8.50/horsepower, or $3800. Thats all else new, internally balanced, complete longblock with pan, timing cover, cam, etc. Add your intake/carb/headers/ignition. in "crate" form, that's around $4500.
On the heads..Doing them yourself can be a rewarding experiance, save a ton, and a good way to get thru the winter up north. It's also bad news if you dont have the tools, or the experience with the heads you are using. It's much easier to hurt performance of the port thru 60% of it's performance window, than it is to make it work 40% better. What I would do is this. Gasket matching can be done by you, and not risk htting seats, or hurting flow in any way. So do that. then, have a good shop do the valve job (5 angle using cutters, not stones) and invest in some bowl cleanup. The first $250 of port work will get you the most bang for the buck. Once you get past that, it's all "X$/hr, how much do you want to spend?" As comparison, a typical set of J heads, totally redone (guides, a few seats, 2.05/1.65 stainless back cut valves, comp springs, retainers and locks, ported to what I would compare to a typical "stage 2 to 2.5" job cost $1100, with the guy supplying the cores. Those make just under 500 hp on a 340, with a big hydraulic cam and 11:1.

As far as castings, X, J, 915s, or 308s would be my top choices. With 308s being #1 in terms of initial cost and port designs in stock form. All factory 340/360 castins can be ported to make over 500hp, using the right package. And edelbrocks cost $1200 to get them in the box. Then it's $150 to correct the valve job, usually new springs depending on cam choice..$125 or so. You do get a better port, and a better chamber, plus less weight, and more potential, but intial cost is higher than a good set of iron, maybe much more if the iron ones have good guides/seats already.
 
moper said:
And edelbrocks cost $1200 to get them in the box. Then it's $150 to correct the valve job,
What is wrong with the valve job on the out of box Edlebrock heads?
 
Some of the work is not up to par. I have had no ill signs myself with my set. But others have had leakage problems with the valve to valve seat area.
Shops like Hughes claim this.

If I was doing another set of Edelbrock heads, I would grab a preped set from Hughes or Dick Landys shop pre set up for what your intended engine build is going to be.
Preped, ported etc....
 
rumblefish360 said:
BJR, Let me pull on your exp. in this. In your opinion;
What is a good iron head to get, LA series.
Is there one to leave on the shelf?
Is there one that responds to basic porting better than the others?


Rumblefish360, These are the heads that I would use or look for,
2531894
3418915
3671587
3769974
308s if they aren't cracked. These heads cover 68-76 and 88-92.
As for one being better than the rest, there all pretty close flow wise and volume wise. I use 587s and 974s mainly.

BJR Racing
 
GotDart said:
What is wrong with the valve job on the out of box Edlebrock heads?


One thing to consider, with all the "ready to bolt on" heads is, they are produced quickly. In a typical shop, one head, 8 valves, 8 springs, retainers, locks and seals are kept as one unit. Each seat is cut to be the same depth, and the valve is lapped and fit to each seat. The springs are tested, and installed at the correct height to ensure the performance of the spring is what it's designed for. What this ensures is that the seat is round, the valve is round, the seat is as close to perfectly aligned with the guide angle as mechanically possible, and the valvetrain is stable due to the springs having the right tension for your cam.
In a production shop (I consider Hughes, Aerohead/Indy, and Edelbrock all in the same group) the steps are different. The castings are machined fully, guides are installed, seats are cut, then the bare heads go onto a shelf. Someone else grabs them, installs new valves, adds spring cups or shims, springs, keepers and locks. It is then boxed and ready to ship. Take a brand new seat apart, check the concentricity of the seats...most are within spec, but some are horrid. My IndySRs had a chunk of aluminum in them almost 1/4" accross. Stuck in teh assembly lube they used on the guide. I had two valves that were less than .0005 stem clearance, and one seat in each head that was .008 out of round. That's a $2500 set of heads, that would have run on thecar, but may have stuck the tight valves, or pulled the heads off the valves over time being that out of round and being revved up fairly high, assuming they sealed. Edelbrocks I've seen, have the same valve job issues associated with production jobs. ALL heads should be taken apart and checked by a shop that has the current machinery. The difference between a great engine, and a mediocre engine is details. This is one of them. The cost for the heads mandates the need to spend the extra $150 and make sure they are "right". At least in my mind.
 
BJR Racing said:
rumblefish360 said:
BJR, Let me pull on your exp. in this. In your opinion;
What is a good iron head to get, LA series.
Is there one to leave on the shelf?
Is there one that responds to basic porting better than the others?


Rumblefish360, These are the heads that I would use or look for,
2531894
3418915
3671587
3769974
308s if they aren't cracked. These heads cover 68-76 and 88-92.
As for one being better than the rest, there all pretty close flow wise and volume wise. I use 587s and 974s mainly.

BJR Racing

I was told stay away from the 345 casting heads (wich were on my old 340). These are 85 3184bbl and 360 heads from roller cam motors, (pre 308) The ports are the same as other 340/360 heads but they have bigger chambers aroun 75ccs and from what I was told dont respond to porting aswell as the other heads.
 
Mopar Muscle Mag had a nice build on a 340 a few months back, just bolt ons, but big increase, electronic ignition, big old carb ,air gap intake, cam, little valve grinding, good headers,h pipe, can' t remember the final hp out put but it was pretty good, oh ya and gears can make a big difference also, bout as cheap a way you can go. Remember we are talking about the mighty 340.. how much Hp did they really have from the factory...?? love em !!
 
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