360 hydraulic lifter failure

[Uncle Bob]

I took my car for a spin today, noticed the hydraulic lifters seemed noisier than usual, then when I came home and parked for a second to open the garage and restarted the car, there was a heck of a racket, and only 20 PSI oil pressure. I didn't notice it running rough or anything when I parked it, but sure did when I restarted it. I pulled it straight inside and shut it off.

Not knowing what else to do, I tore it down, and noticed that #1 exhaust lifter was bled off. The other lifters were solid. I kept going until I had the lifter in my hand and there's no damage on it. It just won't pump up and I guess it was bypassing all the oil causing the OP to drop.

So, I guess I need a new set of lifters. The engine might have 100 miles on it at most (Howard's lifters and cam). There has always been a lot of noise in the top end, so this doesn't surprise me.

Is just replacing the lifters the right thing to do? I really don't know what else I could do. Would I be able to at least see what went wrong if I take the lifter apart?

Also, what is the best brand of lifters right now? I thought Howard's was it, but maybe not.

A photo of the lifter's face is below. Nothing on it but dust. That was a relief. With my luck I expected to find at least one chewed but everything looks hunky dory in there.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Take it apart. It's probably just got a piece of trash in it.

 

[Scody21]

The face looks just fine. Clean it and put it back in…

 

[Bewy]

Yes, this ^^^^

 

[4spdragtop]

Verify the top end is getting oiled by using a priming tool and rotating engine by hand.
Good luck!

 

[Uncle Bob]

I probably should've disassembled and cleaned those before putting them in the block.

I noticed they seemed to have a problem with bleeding off when I was setting the rockers; more than once I had to prime the pump to fill them up so I got an accurate adjustment. The engine has always sounded like they ALL have bled off at first start but they shut up after the oil pressure pops up on the gauge.

I'll give it a try. If find any trash in it (or if it pumps up after I put it back together), I'll go on and do the rest too.

 

[junkyardhero]

I probably should've disassembled and cleaned those before putting them in the block.

I noticed they seemed to have a problem with bleeding off when I was setting the rockers; more than once I had to prime the pump to fill them up so I got an accurate adjustment. The engine has always sounded like they ALL have bled off at first start but they shut up after the oil pressure pops up on the gauge.

I'll give it a try. If find any trash in it (or if it pumps up after I put it back together), I'll go on and do the rest too.

i would strongly recommend you just go ahead and do them all now.

you'd be shocked by the amount of manufacturing junk that is left in these. an ounce of prevention at this stage is worth a pound of gold.

 

[Uncle Bob]

i would strongly recommend you just go ahead and do them all now.

you'd be shocked by the amount of manufacturing junk that is left in these. an ounce of prevention at this stage is worth a pound of gold.

I only said I was going to do them all if it fixed the one I know is screwed up because if it doesn't fix that one, I'm going to toss and replace them all. And this time I'll take them all apart for a cleaning before installing them.

I suspect there is more than one with the same problem. I could've pointed them out when I was running the valves because they would bleed down and I'd have to prime it to pump them back up.

Inexperience bit me here, but thankfully I was thorough on other things so the cam/lifters survived break in.

 

[PRH]

My .02……
The lifter being soft is not the cause of the low oil pressure.
More likely, the low oil pressure(or whatever is causing the low pressure) is the reason for the soft lifter.

 

[Uncle Bob]

My .02……
The lifter being soft is not the cause of the low oil pressure.
More likely, the low oil pressure(or whatever is causing the low pressure) is the reason for the soft lifter.

That's an interesting thought. I expected to find the lifter popped out of the bore, before I removed the intake.

I disassembled the lifter, and AFAICT there's nothing in it that shouldn't be. I still need to soak it in simple green and try blowing out any passages in the body.

 

[Uncle Bob]

FWIW I'm going to put the rockers and all that back together after work and see if it will build pressure using the priming stick.

 

[cudamark]

As PRH mentioned, a bad or noisy lifter isn't going to result in low oil pressure. It's the other way around. I suspect you have a bad bearing or too much clearance in one or more of them. Is this a fresh build?

 

[Uncle Bob]

The build has about 100 miles on it and has 80 PSI cold and stays above 40 always.

It was hot when I went to restart it and it kind of kicked and spit back so I left it sit for a while thinking it had vapor locked. I wonder if that could've had something to do with it.

 

[cudamark]

Not with the oil pressure.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Not with the oil pressure.

I was thinking (hoping) it might have kicked back and screwed up the distributor drive. Wishful thinking but I have to take it out anyway to try priming the engine to see if it will build pressure or not.

I'm not sure if it's pinned or not. Likely not.

 

[cudamark]

If it broke the distributor/oil pump drive, you would have no oil pressure at all.

 

[cudamark]

Do you still have 80lbs pressure cold?

 

[Uncle Bob]

Do you still have 80lbs pressure cold?

The car hasn't been started since it was hot. I pulled it in and took the intake off. Probably should've just pulled the distributor and the shaft but I wasn't thinking oil pressure then, I was thinking OMG those lifters are beating themselves to death.

 

[cudamark]

Pull the drive, hook up a good live oil pressure gauge, run a priming rod with a drill and see what you have for pressure now.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Pull the drive, hook up a good live oil pressure gauge, run a priming rod with a drill and see what you have for pressure now.

That's exactly what I'm going to do after I reassemble the lifter and get the valve train back in place.

 

[Uncle Bob]

I videoed the oil pressure gauge in the car while I turned the pump with a drill and it went over 80.

There's oil all over the place in the valley. The pump drive is OK and it is pinned.

The questionable lifter (#1 exhaust) pumped up but bled right back off. The rest of them seem to be holding pressure.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Unless someone has another suggestion of what I should look for, I need to go ahead and put it back together with the lifters I've got because I have a car coming home soon so I have to move this Duster into another garage.

I would go ahead and replace the lifters, but am not in a hurry to chance it eating a lifter right now.

Gratuitous photo of the other car (A12)

 

[Uncle Bob]

A fellow on another board mentioned an Uncle Tony video that described this same situation



That is exactly what at least that one lifter of mine is doing. Start the engine and it rattles until the pressure shoots up, pressurizing the lifters. Shut the engine off, and at least this one lifter will bleed down almost immediately. Start it again, it rattles again until it pumps up.

UT did not explain how to tell if there's a problem before installing them though and I don't have the rest of my life to watch all of those videos and find out he never mentions it again

One idea I have is to pump them up with the primer then come back tomorrow and any that have collapsed are suspect - replace those. Repeat until I've got 16 that don't leak off. Maybe start with a new set of 16 and go from there. I'm kinda not happy about having to break in new lifters on the cam but that shouldn't be a problem. Right?

The next question is, what brand do I buy to replace these (Howard's) with?

 

[PRH]

Do some digging around to see how many lifter manufacturers produce flat tappets in the USA.
Then narrow it down to manufacturers who produce American made lifters for Mopars.

I’m talking about basic lifters, not high end tool steel pieces.

(You’re going to find it’s a very short list)

 

[Uncle Bob]

(You’re going to find it’s a very short list)

So far I've got Comp, Howards, Clay Smith, Hylift, and that seems to be about it.

According to this and based on taking one apart, the Howard's lifters are made by Hylift. Hard to tell how out of date it is.

I've seen it mentioned that Hylift is the only USA manufacturer and also that they don't make the lifter bodies or plungers so Made in the USA might not be as much of relief as it could be.