360 street build, please critiec

[TT5.9mag]

With ported real EQ heads, not the new China casting, with that cam and compression you’ll get real close to your 450 goal. I have no trouble saying 430 is easy.

Edited to add;
Maybe not with a six pack. Imo those suck. I’d use a big single plane and an 850dp. For more of a street car I’d use an rpm ag and a 750dp.

 

[273]

These hotrod magazine Westech dyno pulls always seem a little ‘happy’ to me. If these numbers come out of that motor it (and 400hp out of the junkyard 360 on the other example) makes me wonder if Mopar underrated their crate motors?.

I wonder what the the Mopar crate 402 435 hp motor would show on a westech dyno? The did a junkyard 360 with smaller less efficient heads, stock bottom end, and the same cam as in the 402 and it made 400hp? The 402 has superior r/t heads, hyper u pistons, h-beam rods, larger valves, same cam, m1 intake, and 42 cubic inches more and only makes 35 horsepower more than the junkyard 360 as according to Mopar’s rating anyway?

People always say that but I’ve never seen any dyno results that prove them wrong.

And a lot of these mopar engines are done by mopar builders some from this site. When they post here they get praised, when they do it in a magazine they get slammed.

If the magazine are slightly happy and that’s the HP numbers most of us know does it really matter?

 

[TT5.9mag]

These hotrod magazine Westech dyno pulls always seem a little ‘happy’ to me. If these numbers come out of that motor it (and 400hp out of the junkyard 360 on the other example) makes me wonder if Mopar underrated their crate motors?.

I wonder what the the Mopar crate 402 435 hp motor would show on a westech dyno? The did a junkyard 360 with smaller less efficient heads, stock bottom end, and the same cam as in the 402 and it made 400hp? The 402 has superior r/t heads, hyper u pistons, h-beam rods, larger valves, same cam, m1 intake, and 42 cubic inches more and only makes 35 horsepower more than the junkyard 360 as according to Mopar’s rating anyway?

Ever been on a dyno? Ever been on the dyno at westech? I have and I have. And I can tell you first hand you can trust the numbers that come out of that shop. There is no manipulation of the numbers for the magazines. They do everything they can to equalize all of the variables to get realistic information. They call it the polygraph, read above the door.

 

[TT5.9mag]

A lot of people have dynod the mopar crate engines and they definitely do punch above their weight.

 

[rumblefish360]

With that much lobe lift, how close do the oil grooves get to the top or bottom of the lifter bores or the bottom of the flats hitting the stock dogbone?

Not that I have noticed. I did look. No dog one issues.
I have zero oiling issues and constant good pressure.

I've read .350" -ish lobe lift is about max with stock roller lifters. I haven't checked though.

A lot of people have dynod the mopar crate engines and they definitely do punch above their weight.

100%!

 

[TT5.9mag]

With that much lobe lift, how close do the oil grooves get to the top or bottom of the lifter bores or the bottom of the flats hitting the stock dogbone?

I've read .350" -ish lobe lift is about max with stock roller lifters. I haven't checked though.

I run .358 lobe lift on my hydraulic roller with stock lifters/linkbars. I did measure how much more I could get out of them before the linkbars bottomed out but I don’t remember the number or if I wrote it down. I’ll look. The oil grooves was a non issue in the tall magnum lifter bore.

 

[PRH]

New EQ Head port misalignment?

 

[mopowers]

I run .358 lobe lift on my hydraulic roller with stock lifters/linkbars. I did measure how much more I could get out of them before the linkbars bottomed out but I don’t remember the number or if I wrote it down. I’ll look. The oil grooves was a non issue in the tall magnum lifter bore.

You're making me rethink ordering a cam recently with 230/236 and .340/.347 lobes vs. the 230/236 .360/.357 shelf grind they offer. If nothing else, I figured the shorter lobes would be a little easier on the stock lifters.

What springs do you run with that cam, if you don't mind?

 

[TT5.9mag]

You're making me rethink ordering a cam recently with 230/236 and .340/.347 lobes vs. the 230/236 .360/.357 shelf grind they offer. If nothing else, I figured the shorter lobes would be a little easier on the stock lifters.

What springs do you run with that cam, if you don't mind?

Don’t think too hard, that amount of lift difference you’ll never notice on a street/strip deal. As for springs, I have to refer you to Brian at IMM. he ported and set up these W2s for me and that included the cam grind and the springs.

 

[crackedback]

Ever been on a dyno? Ever been on the dyno at westech? I have and I have. And I can tell you first hand you can trust the numbers that come out of that shop. There is no manipulation of the numbers for the magazines. They do everything they can to equalize all of the variables to get realistic information. They call it the polygraph, read above the door.
View attachment 1716363039

They got it figured out. It was a mess for a long time. It had a rep for spitting out bigger numbers than should be seen. It's good now.

--------------------------------------
For the does it really matter denials....

For engine guys that don't care, big numbers sell parts/services for shops. If one guy says they can build a 450hp for X and another says we do that X dollar engine and it makes 495, which shop do you think might get the business, when in reality they are the same engine. hmmmm. A very popular engine guy in Orange County was good for that. I set up a humidifier, steaming the weather station, to make it seem like a swamp in Louisiana during the hottest summer day when it was in the 60's, dry winter day near the beach.
The Dyno Derby 340 is a perfect example of total crap data coming off a dyno!

 

[4mulas]

People always say that but I’ve seen any dyno results that prove them wrong.

And a lot of these mopar engines are done by mopar builders some from this site. When they post here they get praised, when they do it in a magazine they get slammed.

If the magazine are slightly happy and that’s the HP numbers most of us know does it really matter?

No it doesn’t really matter to me as I don’t care, just wondering why the discrepancies of what the builders publish and amongst similar builds or builds that you would think should make more or less when on the dyno etc….

 

[4mulas]

Ever been on the dyno at westech?

Nope

 

[TT5.9mag]

Nope

One of my engines is on the dyno there as I type this. I’ll be there in an hour. It is very hard to get repeatable, accurate information from a dyno and it takes the care of the operator to do it. Every time I’ve had my junk on the pump there they scrutinized the littlest of details to make sure the dyno is accurate.

 

[TT5.9mag]

They got it figured out. It was a mess for a long time. It had a rep for spitting out bigger numbers than should be seen. It's good now.

--------------------------------------
For the does it really matter denials....

For engine guys that don't care, big numbers sell parts/services for shops. If one guy says they can build a 450hp for X and another says we do that X dollar engine and it makes 495, which shop do you think might get the business, when in reality they are the same engine. hmmmm. A very popular engine guy in Orange County was good for that. I set up a humidifier, steaming the weather station, to make it seem like a swamp in Louisiana during the hottest summer day when it was in the 60's, dry winter day near the beach.
The Dyno Derby 340 is a perfect example of total crap data coming off a dyno!

It’s funny when I hear stuff like this because we had the engine in our off road race truck on the pump at westech years ago (at least 12 years I’d have to check the dates) and Off Road magazine came in to do a write up on it. They sat through the entire dyno session asking a bunch of questions along with one of the “sponsors” of some parts on the engine. That sponsor asked Brule for a “magazine” number and he did everything except throw the guy out of the shop. We were testing carburetors that day and that business is ruthless when it comes to numbers.

 

[TT5.9mag]

One of my engines is on the dyno there as I type this. I’ll be there in an hour.

A 6.0 LS I donated to Richard Holdener for cam and turbo testing.

 

[crackedback]

It’s funny when I hear stuff like this because we had the engine in our off road race truck on the pump at westech years ago (at least 12 years I’d have to check the dates) and Off Road magazine came in to do a write up on it. They sat through the entire dyno session asking a bunch of questions along with one of the “sponsors” of some parts on the engine. That sponsor asked Brule for a “magazine” number and he did everything except throw the guy out of the shop. We were testing carburetors that day and that business is ruthless when it comes to numbers.

That Derby article was back in the early 2000's that the dyno nonsense was happening. The joke we had was if it didn't make enough here... schedule a session at westech. Had one where it must have had a great nights sleep, the next day after a dyno session, it made around 40more hp on their pump. It wasn't intentional, there was something going on with the dyno. They got it sorted out. Car posted time slips comprable with the lower HP number.

If you use it for what it is, a tuning tool they are great. All you have to do is watch Pass Time to see a bunch of Dyno numbers loving Pinocchio folks rolling their stuff to the line!

 

[RustyRatRod]

Weren't those new China castings the ones with the ports and intake bolt holes terribly misaligned?

 

[273]

No it doesn’t really matter to me as I don’t care, just wondering why the discrepancies of what the builders publish and amongst similar builds or builds that you would think should make more or less when on the dyno etc….

I'd have to see these discrepancies, I've yet to see anything that would lead me to believe these results are false. Wouldn't make much business sense for Westech to do manipulative dyno result, who would want to use them if you can't trust them and have yet to see any dyno results that shows otherwise. (and how would you be able to trust them ?) It's usually people using those quarter mile calculators as evidence and when you check the history of those calculators based off some guy in the 60's that estimated the hp of the cars used.

I show those articles because I feel it shows more for the OP than a bunch of people arguing what they will do in their imagination dyno (guesstimate). If people don't buy the results that's up to them, take from it what you want.

As for the Mopar 402 crate probably is under rated like the other crates better to deliver too much than too little.

 

[273]

And when I said does it matter, I mean says everyone's engine is actually making 25 hp less then everyone thinks their engine is making, would it really change anything? Still be as fast.
Most aren't getting their engines dyno so if their thinking they got a 400 hp engine and only got a 375 hp engine it ain't gonna change much especially if most people are thinking the same thing.

Yes I could see it being a pain in the *** if your engine builds come up short to customers expectations.

 

[gregsdart]

New EQ Head port misalignment?

Thanks Dwayne. You saved me from a bunch of trouble!

 

[Newbomb Turk]

I'd have to see these discrepancies, I've yet to see anything that would lead me to believe these results are false. Wouldn't make much business sense for Westech to do manipulative dyno result, who would want to use them if you can't trust them and have yet to see any dyno results that shows otherwise. (and how would you be able to trust them ?) It's usually people using those quarter mile calculators as evidence and when you check the history of those calculators based off some guy in the 60's that estimated the hp of the cars used.

I show those articles because I feel it shows more for the OP than a bunch of people arguing what they will do in their imagination dyno (guesstimate). If people don't buy the results that's up to them, take from it what you want.

As for the Mopar 402 crate probably is under rated like the other crates better to deliver too much than too little.

I used to get several business only type magazines. That's not exactly what they are called but it's what they are. Anyone can subscribe but these magazines aren't like car magazines.

Anyway, I read an article where the guy who builds chassis dyno's (or built I don't know if he still owns the company or if he's still alive) and it's not a Mustang dyno but another brand I can't recall now.

The upshot is when he would contact engine shops about the benefits of dyno testing before the engine leaves the shop.

He said he was stunned to hear from some shops that they could spend the same amount of money on advertising and not have to back up the claims they made on power.

Some shops don't want to know how much power they make because its a lot cheaper and easier to just say you make *** HP and send it rather than proving it.

 

[PRH]

At some point after the 2003 Enginemasters competition, David Freiburger wrote an article in one of the magazines he was working for claiming that Westech discovered their barometer was off, which was causing their corrected numbers to be 5% high.

The 2002 & 2003 EM contests were set up where the initial run offs were done at 3 locations, and the top 3 from each location would face off at Westech(which was one of the run off locations).
For both 2002 & 2003, the competitors that didn’t do the run offs at Westech, saw noticeably higher numbers when tested there for the finals.

That stirred up some internet controversy, and the result of that was the DF article, and a supposedly recalibrated(or replacement) barometer for Westech.

Prior to that, the numbers from there that made it into magazines always looked pretty high to me.

 

[4mulas]

As for the Mopar 402 crate probably is under rated like the other crates better to deliver too much than too little.

I guess this is all I wanted to know as the engine should be making more than stock junkyard 360’s with a cam that have been dyno’d and published.

I not trying to disparage westech or their dyno. I like watching a lot of the engine masters stuff. I’ve just heard from many in the past that certain dyno’s can be ‘happy’ or that any operator can make happy results by altering a few things here or there.

Again it doesn’t really matter or change what’s under the hood of my car.

 

[rumblefish360]

There is always people throwing shade and doubt on dyno’s and their operators. Always a shady word thrown on them.

They jack up the power levels because/for the;

Show
Advertising / Advertisers
Parts suppliers
Creating WOW numbers for views
So they can continue to get free parts
They are being paid to make the companies look good
To keep their paychecks coming in
The boss said to do it
Watchers to the show
More advertisers to pay for the show/their checks/free parts

It’s rather sickening. Everyone has a line as to why *** dyno sucks, how they get big numbers, etc…. And everyone is right and everyone else is ether wrong or only partially right. The other guy has no idea what their talking about even though 90% of them have never been to a dyno.

Stories of my brothers second sister in-laws ex-husbands third removed ill-legitimate child from his third aunts 5th marriage to the second cousins in laws knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy at his last job after his high school’s principal third removed cousin from the army that went nuts after having his head half blown off said his cell mate said……


(Or Ex President Biden said….)

 

[gregsdart]

Ok, now that i know not to buy EQ heads, ( or till i find out they are "fixed", what heads would be a good option for a budget build? Looking for a head that flows in the neighborhood of 265 to 270 at .550 like the original EQs did with minor mods, and would work with either an early 360 block or magnum 5.9? Still wanting to hit 425 to 450 hp, peaking 5700 to 6000 rpm, good torque from about 3200 up.