367 vs 410 Engines Masters

[273]

I'm using your example, the test done on engine masters. And your example, the rpm difference between the two motors you used as the reason they would run about the same. Now you want to use a couple of fords instead? Shouldn't we stick with the original test that you posted. If you can't make your point with that test then it might not apply to that test. I feel like your going to just keep moving the goal post. I get what your saying but I don't see it in the test you posted.

I’m not moving the goal post my intent right from the beginning was I don’t like how they compare these engines not which is better. You seem to be only interested in showing the 410 is better which it might be.

My point if you compared each engines powerband (stall to shift points) the difference would be less, probably quite similar and maybe even a win for the 367.

Since neither of us has these engines to find out what there optimal setup is, who knows.
Not what I was talking about and is why I bought up the ford since it’s easier to see what I’m talking about.

410 plus 36.4 tq & 8.5 hp over the 367, They never factor gearing when they make these comparisons, not saying the 367 is better but if geared and stalled right and with optimal shift points for best quarter mile I don't think there would be much difference and could even see the 367 squeak out the win.

Same goal post

 

[273]

Where are you getting 2%. Are you cherry picking the point in the curve where the two motors were the closest? Doesn't look like you're using average horsepower.

Do I have to for that point, yes I used peak, we don’t have the average, would need to write down every hp @ every 100 rpm from imagined stall to shift points since it would only be a guess.

The 367 has more lbs~ft per cid than the 410 and doesn’t need much more rpm to make same peaks that’s telling me the 367 is pretty efficient compared to the 410 and that makes me believe it probably has a better power curve between stall and shift points but I could be wrong

 

[fishmens67]

410 vs 367

I think gear for gear stall for stall the 367 pulls past the 410 at the 1/4 mile stripe.

 

[92b]

I’m not moving the goal post my intent right from the beginning was I don’t like how they compare these engines not which is better. You seem to be only interested in showing the 410 is better which it might be.

My point if you compared each engines powerband (stall to shift points) the difference would be less, probably quite similar and maybe even a win for the 367.

Since neither of us has these engines to find out what there optimal setup is, who knows.
Not what I was talking about and is why I bought up the ford since it’s easier to see what I’m talking about.


Same goal post

Yes, that is the goal post I used to show that in this case the 410 is better The same conclusion that the host of the show came to. I would love to see a 360 beat a 410 but your going to have to do it in a different way than was done in this test.

 

[Dan the man]

You guys should do a 360 vs a 340. Build them both the same way and see which one comes out on top.

 

[273]

Yes, that is the goal post I used to show that in this case the 410 is better The same conclusion that the host of the show came to. I would love to see a 360 beat a 410 but your going to have to do it in a different way than was done in this test.

All did was average 5 data points which may or maybe not be each engine’s optimal power curve and called it a win

 

[273]

Yes, that is the goal post I used to show that in this case the 410 is better The same conclusion that the host of the show came to. I would love to see a 360 beat a 410 but your going to have to do it in a different way than was done in this test.

I went through the averages, used stalls 500 rpms below peak torque, shift points 500 rpm above peak hp, geared both at peak hp at the stripe based on a 110 mph, not saying this would be optimal but had to pick reasonable parameters .(No converter slippage factored in)

I got hp (best I could) for every 5 mph from stall to shift points through 1st, 2nd and 3rd

Average hp for each gear
1st gear = 410 with 392 hp and 367 with 389 hp
2nd gear = 410 with 394 hp and 367 with 390 hp
3rd gear = 410 with 410 hp and 367 with 403 hp

overall = 410 with 399 hp and 367 with 394 hp, To me that's very similar
And less than 2% difference.

 

[92b]

All did was average 5 data points which may or maybe not be each engine’s optimal power curve and called it a win

I used 6 data points. Every 500 rpm. I could have used 7 data points and that would have widened the gap between the 2 motors. 7 data points would have used the entire power curve that was measured for each engine. The 7th data point would have put me below the rpm you specified for each engine so it was let out. I could have doubled the data points to 12 and used every 250 rpm but if you look at the shape of the curve you will see that it won't change the average.

 

[92b]

I went through the averages, used stalls 500 rpms below peak torque, shift points 500 rpm above peak hp, geared both at peak hp at the stripe based on a 110 mph, not saying this would be optimal but had to pick reasonable parameters .(No converter slippage factored in)

I got hp (best I could) for every 5 mph from stall to shift points through 1st, 2nd and 3rd

Average hp for each gear
1st gear = 410 with 392 hp and 367 with 389 hp
2nd gear = 410 with 394 hp and 367 with 390 hp
3rd gear = 410 with 410 hp and 367 with 403 hp

overall = 410 with 399 hp and 367 with 394 hp, To me that's very similar
And less than 2% difference.

Can you show your work please? It sounds like you started with the assumtion that they would make the same mph at the stripe unless I'm misunderstanding. What happens if you use the same gear, same shift points and the same converter?

 

[273]

Can you show your work please? It sounds like you started with the assumtion that they would make the same mph at the stripe unless I'm misunderstanding.

I did

What happens if you use the same gear, same shift points and the same converter?

Why would you run the same gear and converter and shift points for both if looking for best times for each ?

Here's my work, I'm not saying these are optimal stall gearing and shift points you would only know that once installed searched out, why I said we won't know which is better but do think these are reasonable data points and it shows like I thought these engines have similar potential.

Each gear is written, mph = rpm = hp (as best I could see) at the end of each gear hp ave

410 with 4.10 5500 @ 110 2nd 3540 3rd 4140 Stall 3500 = 29,

1st, 30 = 3615 = 325, 35 = 4218 = 380, 40 = 4820 = 410, 45 = 5423 430, 50 = 6025 = 415 = 392hp ave

2nd, 50 = 3565 = 320, 55 = 3922 = 360, 60 = 4278 = 385, 65 = 4635 = 405, 70 = 4991 = 420, 75 = 5348 = 430, 80 = 5703 = 425, 85 = 6061 = 410 = 394hp ave

3rd, 85 = 4182 = 380, 90 = 4428 = 395, 95 = 4674 = 410, 100 = 4920 = 420, 105 = 5166 = 425, 110 = 5412 = 430 = 410hp ave

367 with 4.36 5800 @ 110 2nd 3717 3rd 4347 Stall 3700 = 29

1st, 30 = 3846 = 320, 35 = 4487 = 375, 40 = 5128 = 410, 45 = 5769 = 422, 50 = 6410 = 415 = 388.4hp ave

2nd, 50 = 3795 = 320, 55 = 4175 = 350, 60 = 4554 = 380, 65 = 4934 = 400, 70 = 5313 = 415, 75 = 5693 = 420, 80 = 6072 = 420, 85 = 6452 = 415 = 390hp ave

3rd, 85 = 4446 = 370, 90 = 4707 = 390, 95 = 4969 = 400, 100 = 5230 = 415, 105 = 5492 = 420, 110 = 5753 = 420 = 403hp ave

 

[92b]

If I showed you this graph and told you the top line was the 368 and the bottom line was a 410 would we be having this conversation?

 

[92b]

Why would you run the same gear and converter and shift points for both if looking for best times for each ?

What happens to the numbers when you run both motors with the same gear same shift points and same stall? Just curious, they should go down for the 410 right?
Also if you make the assumption they will be running the same mph aren't your numbers going to end up nearly the same?

 

[273]

If I showed you this graph and told you the top line was the 368 and the bottom line was a 410 would we be having this conversation?View attachment 1716418882

No cause I'd be wondering where the torque went, that would be the convo, why does this 410 make no torque.

 

[92b]

No cause I'd be wondering where the torque went, that would be the convo, why does this 410 make no torque.

Apparently all that torque doesn't make any difference. Less than 2%.

 

[92b]

No cause I'd be wondering where the torque went, that would be the convo, why does this 410 make no torque.

Should be able to just run more gear with the 410 and it will keep up with the 360 Right?

 

[273]

What happens to the numbers when you run both motors with the same gear same shift points and same stall? Just curious, they should go down for the 410 right?

I've already stated yes many times and agree that most probably would gear and stall them similar cause seems most on here see 3.23 and 3.55 as only choices and most probably be happier with the 410 but that doesn't mean they don't have similar potential and when talking about the performance potential of these two engines drivetrain should be factored in.

Also if you make the assumption they will be running the same mph aren't your numbers going to end up nearly the same?

Do you think they will run vastly different mph numbers a couple mph either way ain't gonna change the rpm numbers much.

We don't know a lot, like what rpm at finish will be best for both, what shift points, what stall for each.

 

[273]

Should be able to just run more gear with the 410 and it will keep up with the 360 Right?

No, the 410 noses over after peak hp going higher and higher up in the rpm band above peak is gonna have diminishing returns, the 367 we don't know where it noses over they didn't rev it far enough but it obviously it peaks at a higher rpm and probably has more useful power above peak so whatever gear you stick in the 410 you should be able to run deeper in the 367.

 

[92b]

No, the 410 noses over after peak hp going higher and higher up in the rpm band above peak is gonna have diminishing returns, the 367 we don't know where it noses over they didn't rev it far enough but it obviously it peaks at a higher rpm and probably has more useful power above peak so whatever gear you stick in the 410 you should be able to run deeper in the 367.

Sorry, should have been more clear. I was speaking from the perspective of the two curves being flip flopped.

 

[j par]

410 plus 36.4 tq & 8.5 hp over the 367, They never factor gearing when they make these comparisons, not saying the 367 is better but if geared and stalled right and with optimal shift points for best quarter mile I don't think there would be much difference and could even see the 367 squeak out the win.

Well, I knew this was going to go off the rails and I got about a page and a half into it, and it was well off the rails lol...

Anyways, I think I see what you're saying, maybe a lot of money and or something to get eight and a half extra horsepower or torque or whatever...
I watched this video a couple weeks ago on YouTube. So I vaguely remember him saying at the beginning. That it was a no-brainer, because a 4 inch crank from Scott, is like 350 bucks, and if you're rebuilding your engine, you're going to have to resize your factory rides and why not get Bring new rods for a $100 more that are yeah, lightweight, then stronger. And since you're rebuilding the engine, you're going to have to bore it and buy any pistons, anyhow and the pressure, those are about the same... and that kind of resonated with me as the reason I did it... thinking here was I had a great foundation for anything. I wanted to do like switching heads and cams, like I have in the past, and since I have more cubic inches, I can get the bigger ones and still run correctly...
Are you saying everything wouldn't be preventious with larger cubes?..
Also one guy did ask about rpms, as it seemed to be your point. The the three sixty seven could r p m more which I don't think that's proven and if it is it would be in the highest extremes( unusable ranges for both) I would imagine....

 

[j par]

I love voice command...

 

[j par]

I love voice command...

Make me sound deliberate, that way.You guys know who you're dealing with....
Remember i'm no ordinary idiot...

 

[273]

I don't understand this conversation.... the 410 makes more power everywhere up to around 5600? across the entire curve.. my motor will spend about 1% of it's life above 5600.. so you can have quite a bit more power across 95% of the curve for almost the same money? How is this 3 pages long? Honestly wondering what i'm missing...

That being said.. if i were making a motor that spent it's life in a specific RPM range like 5600-6000 i would go with the 360 and hope i never had to race the 410 from a stop

This 367 vs 410 ain't the clearest example, when comparing on the dyno graph people are generally comparing each hp at the same rpm, so at 3000 rpm engine A Xhp and B Yhp and yes practical at every point the 410 wins and if both install with same gear etc.. in car probably play out similar (410 wins).

But to me if comparing the true potential of each engine (what performance is possible) you need to compare at each hp point and see at what rpms engines A and B makes the same hp, cause if you were to run both for best performance you wouldn't be running same gear and stall etc..

So as we drive if you had 410 with 4.10 gears and I had the 367 with 4.36 (could be 3.23 vs 3.55 etc..) in 1st gear your gonna be revving 1250 rpm for every 10 mph and I'll be revving 1330 rpm for every 10. So if we both gonna 30 mph (at full throttle) you'd be turning 3750 rpm and I'd be turning 3990 rpm at 40 it would be 5000 rpm vs 5320 rpm so obviously were running at different rpms at any given mph so it don't matter what we both make at 3000 rpm, 4000 rpm etc.. but what hp were both putting to the ground at any moment.

Also notice the rpm gap gets wider as you go faster

 

[92b]

We don't know a lot, like what rpm at finish will be best for both, what shift points, what stall for each.

We do know this from the graph. Any shift point that drops below 5500 and the 406 has the advantage. And up to 6000 they are the same. only above 6000 is there an advantage for the 367. Go back and look at your charts and see how much time is spent below 5500 vs above 6000. Use the 4.36 gear for both to make it simple.

 

[Dart Frog]

If your raceing Dyno readings that's one thing, but through the right gear selection vehicle weight ability to catch traction ,transmission efficiency and first and foremost head selection etc the overall quickness of the car will very and not always to the advantage of a longer stroke motor. Example Bob glidden's arrow and winning pro stock championship. So everybody's right or maybe everybody's wrong LOL

 

[92b]

This started out as a comparison between the two engines in the engine masters show.