367 vs 410 Engines Masters
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There's so many different circumstances when people approach a build. Problem is lots of people have self imposed compromises, like cid, gears, stall, streetability etc.. then say some random hp number that sounds nice to them and usually a huge range like 400-500 hp.
I'd say ideally need an accurate assessment of the power needed and at what rpms and that will tell you what heads and CID range as a starting place.
cookietruck
Well-Known Member
Looks like a scat cast crank is $500 and the trick flow heads are about $275 more than edelbrocks (each).
100%, I'd add realistically
Buddy just being obtuse on purpose trying to make a gotcha moment,
Like i originally said If you already had that 367 in your car and wanted to upgrade and the two main options was to slap on a better top end or rebuild the short block with a 4" stroker and probably at least check or refresh the top. It obviously ain't the cheapest 4" crank you can find vs a Trick Flow top end, he likes to strawman everything I say.
I wouldn't bother with a 4" crank without at least a Trick flow top end, the very least.
To me it depends, I got 2.96 rear gears and 2.45 1st but say would like the performance of my engine with 3.55/3.73 but don't really want a higher cruising speed without cutting up my car for an O/D, a 4" and a 2.74 1st gear probably be a solution.
Cause of most gearing choices I see, I don't know why more don't want to go big block.
But yes get your point, if building 400+ cid make 500 + hp, but do see reasons for lower hp big engines, depends what you want.
cookietruck
Well-Known Member
Just out of curiosity what does yr 500hp stock stroke 400 consist of?
10:1 short block, trick flow head, 240@.050 590 lift, ported Holley street dominator topped with a holley 850 dp 2" header
One thing I've notice is what I'd call typical street strip type build the short blocks are basically the same, 10:1 ish cr, 240 ish cam, and it's the heads (and intake, exhaust etc..) that set the power level no matter the engine brand type cid.
That's because drag racers opperate in that tiny box at the right side of the curve. Race cars.
The rebuild process is the same for a 367 as it is for a 410.
Congratulations you identified the powerband
At 3600/3850 rpms these engines are down about 100 hp (325 hp) that's a lot think being a 100 + hp is really being in the power, at 3000 rpms there almost down 200 hp.And Not just racer any time you go full throttle through the gears (at least some of them).
Most of the time at part throttle your not making any of this your making whatever the engine needs (less than a /6 ) to do whatever speed through town and highways.
My car has a 380 crate, 2,800 stall and 2.96 gears, I have to get up to 40 mph in first then hammer it to get to a point is start to really make decent power and pull to 5500/6000 rpms then I feel the actual power of my car and I don't race on the street or track but do full throttle runs through a couple of gears.
40 mph in 1st with some converter slip is about 4,000 rpm according to the dyno chart 333 hp 81% of peak 76 hp down.
Now what my engine makes at 2500-4000 rpm 181-333 hp isn't bad hp and would be a decent powerband on it's own, a lot would be happy making 333 hp peak, but for my engine that's outside it's powerband, sure I can play around down there but I'm not in it's powerband, I'm not feeling the main power (potential) my engine is capable of.
360 Crate Engine Buildup & Dyno - Crate Expectations
Mopar Performance 360 cid 380 hp rated
| RPM | TQ | HP |
| 2500 | 380.6 | 181 |
| 3000 | 402.9 | 230 |
| 3500 | 415.1 | 277 |
| 4000 | 437.8 | 333 |
| 4100 | 439.5 | 343 |
| 4500 | 437.1 | 375 |
| 5000 | 416.3 | 396 |
| 5400 | 398.6 | 409 |
| 5500 | 388.6 | 407 |
| 6000 | 343.9 | 395 |
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You need to get 3.23 gears at least. Why have that power and torque and not be able to get the full benefit of it? Off line acceleration would be better
It's how I bought the car, it's actually not too bad, but like I pointed out it's relatively hard to get into the meat of the powerband 4000-6000 rpm = 40-60 ish mph in 1st, I'd think more like 3.73 or 3.91 gears if I'm gonna do it, 3.23 isn't much of a change 3.55 minimum.
I did this a while ago to see which gears look to work best, 3.91 look to be best but there's no converter slip factored in so, 3.73 with some slip look the best to me.
2.94 with 26" tires.
1st 2.45 = 896 rpm for every 10 mph
2nd 1.45 = 551 rpm for every 10 mph
3rd 1.00 = 380 rpm for every 10 mph
30 mph = 2,800 rpm, 40 mph = 3,724 rpm, 50 mph = 4,655 rpm, 60 mph = 5,586 rpm, 64.4 mph = 6,000 rpm.
64.4 mph = 3,548 rpm, 70 mph = 3,857 rpm, 80 mph = 4,408 rpm, 90 mph = 4,959 rpm, 100 mph = 5,510 rpm, 110 mph = 6,061 rpm
3.23 with 26" tires.
1st 2.45 = 1023 rpm for every 10 mph
2nd 1.45 = 605 rpm for every 10 mph
3rd 1.00 = 417 rpm for every 10 mph
27 mph = 2,800 rpm, 30 mph = 3,069 rpm, 40 mph = 4,092 rpm, 50 mph = 5,115 rpm, 59 mph = 6,036 rpm
59 mph = 3,570 rpm, 70 mph = 4,235 rpm, 80 mph = 4,840 rpm, 90 mph = 5,445 rpm, 99 mph = 5,990 rpm,
99 mph = 4,128 rpm, 110 mph = 4,587 rpm
3.55 with 26" tires.
1st 2.45 = 1,124 rpm for every 10 mph
2nd 1.45 = 665 rpm for every 10 mph
3rd 1.00 = 459 rpm for every 10 mph
25 mph = 2,800 rpm, 30 mph = 3,372 rpm, 40 mph = 4,496 rpm, 50 mph = 5,630 rpm, 53.3 mph = 6,000 rpm
53.3 mph = 3,544 rpm, 60 mph = 3,990 rpm, 70 mph = 4,655 rpm, 80 mph = 5,320, 90 mph = 5,985 rpm
90 mph = 4,131 rpm, 100 mph = 4,590 rpm, 110 mph = 5,049 rpm.
3.73 with 26" tires.
1st 2.45 = 1,181 rpm for every 10 mph
2nd 1.45 = 699 rpm for every 10 mph
3rd 1.00 = 482 rpm for every 10 mph
24 mph = 2,800 rpm, 30 mph = 3,543 rpm, 40 mph = 4,724 rpm, 50 mph = 5,905 rpm
50 mph = 3,495 rpm, 60 mph = 4,194 rpm, 70 mph = 4,893 rpm, 80 mph = 5,592, 86 mph = 6,011 rpm
86 mph = 4,131 rpm, 100 mph = 4,820 rpm, 110 mph = 5,302 rpm.
3.91 with 26" tires.
1st 2.45 1238 rpm for every 10 mph
2nd 1.45 733 rpm for every 10 mph
3rd 1.00 505 rpm for every 10 mph
23 mph = 2,800 rpm, 30 mph = 3,714 rpm, 40 mph = 4,952 rpm, 48 mph = 5,942 rpm
48 mph = 3,518 rpm, 60 mph = 4,398 rpm, 70 mph = 5,131 rpm, 82 mph = 6,011 rpm
82 mph = 4,141 rpm, 90 mph = 4,545 rpm, 100 mph = 5,050 rpm, 110 mph = 5,555 rpm
How are you going to have more bottom end than the stroker with 2.96 gears?
You were comparing either a stroker or top end kit in your car right? Unlike the test done in the video you said you didn't need your bottom end rebuilt. You said you have 2.96 gears and a 2800 stall in your car.
Yes, if I had that 367 and was talked into stroking it, that example has nothing to do with my actual car.
Yes, and I was explaining how My cars actual powerband works with those gears and stall.
The point was my non race cars powerband is basically 4000 to 6000 rpms and peaks at 5400 rpm. An engine's powerband is not 2,500 to 6,000 plus rpms cause that's what they dyno'd,
It's relative to it's peak hp rpm. You very well know that as you pointed out in a race (full throttle run) the useful part is that little box (powerband) to the right on a dyno sheet.
But you don't want to talk about that cause it don't help your case, so you rather take pieces out of context strawman me to try and gotcha me. Been 18 pages still waiting for to make a valid argument
.Thanks for sharing this information with me
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