426 inch+ small blocks

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why cant you get exact machining and tolerances when building ANY engine??

I know what your trying to say, modern technology, and I get that, but when I take any part to a CNC machine it will be just as in spec, or better then anything put out now.

answer me this - what clearance are you talking about that would fry itself?
 
Are you saying the distance between the piston and the cylinder wall is closer on an ls engine? If so, how much closer?

If the motor lasts 20k thats fine (I think it will last longer), I just want a torquey engine that lets me reuse all my existing parts, I DONT WANT A BIG BLOCK.
 
as far as pin height - it is more of the shorter skirt that allows any rocking, the simplest way to describe it is that. The short CH of the 4.125 stroker has a short skirt because it will hit the crack at BDC - it's not the pin its the skirt.
 
just look at the clearances on an LS engine. everything is tighter then a nun's asshole. also, look at oiling system & take a closer look at
the pistons they use. if one tried to run clearances like that on a LA block
it'll fry itself pretty fast. bottom line, you can beAt on a 500+hp 427cid
LS series engine and it'll last for years & years. try doing that with an LA
stroker. not dissing mopar.. but facts are facts.
Do you have a 500 + hp LS that your beating on right now, that gives you first hand experience on how it can outlast a older stroker? plenty of these new engines develop piston slap, you should be able to tell us why they do since you looked into how they clearance the newer engines, tell us for instance how the piston is sized to the bore..
There are thousands of strokers mainly the old 350/383 chevys that have over 100K
 
Car craft is making an LS engine here with a 4" strok crank, and 6.125" rods.... HMMMMMM

where have i seen that combo before...

they utilize a shorter deck and need a shorter piston :


and this quote states:

"While aluminum block motors need a little more clearance, we aimed for the more traditional 0.0025-inch rod and main bearing clearance spec
"

Thats pretty much standard for every engine
 

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I figured the weights might be a problem. I see your point in regard to acceptable designs Dave. But, I know that ring seal goes away on the 4" motors about 3 times as fast as a 3.58 stroke. I've seen it. Not in a few thousand, but after 20K or so it can get messy. And that's with doing everything one can in terms of getting machining and wall finish right, plus using good parts. It's not the block or pistons that wear out. It's the ability of the rings to seal with that much movement at TDC. If we're comparing to GM I also believe the cylinder wall integrity is MUCH better on the LS engines than a Mopar factory block. In my opinion there comes a time when building stroke just for the sake of it doesnt make sense. Above 4" in a small block is it for me when it comes to a street car. There is such a thing a too much of a good thing. You'll have to take yours and leak it down after about 10K miles and see where it's at. Is there a way to opt for a factory ring stack in that piston or is it only 1.5mm or 1/16?
 
ring seal is the issue - correct?

Dave - your contradicting yourself - no offense

if its not the block or pistons, but the rings, then why would the block be the difference in the gm application? the walls are stronger? but i thought it was not the block? That does not make sense to me man.


If it all comes down to cylinder wall integrity then what do these gm LS blocks sonic out at? they cant be that much thicker or they would not cool.



so if the rings go away 3x as fast on a stroker then why do members like GMachineDartGT have more miles then 20k on the motors?

I'm willing to bet there are more then a handfull of people with miles on these things.
 
The GM design incorporates pressed in sleeves. The wall thickness is extremely uniform and can be when the sleeve is machined independently of the block.
 
i'm still not convinced - any aluminum block will move alot more then a cast iron one. thats a fact.
 
Try looking at the dynamics of the interactions, not the parts sitting idle in seperate piles. Cylinder walls distort. The rings have to follow the wall surface and seal on the wall and the ring lands. The face of the compression ring is rounded to seal the bore. The sides of the ring and piston ring lands are flat. As the walls flex, the piston can move more, both in the middle of the stroke where sealing isnt a big deal ,and the top of the stroke where the skirt is 2" down and the rings have to seal as the piston reverses direction. The ring ends up having to slide in and out, and twist all as the piston moves. Once wear there starts, the ring can move more, and the sealing goes away faster. No contradiction. You have to have a stable piston, a stable wall, and a stable ring to keep the sealing affect at it's best.
I'm just stating what I believe. You can remain unconvinced. It's your engine...lol. I have a couple that are approaching 15K. they run fine, make plenty of power, etc. But, I also know of many others that don't go that far before they start showing leak down numbers closer to 10-12%. I think that's high for the mileage. Not fatal, but definately shows faster wear. These are not trailer queens, don't have overdrives, and are raced, so maybe that's it. I'm also sure that like anything else, things like machining quality and assembly quality need to be better for anything to last, and maybe it's the marginal ones that begin to lose seal earlier. It makes sense. The closer one is "to the edge" the more precise the steps have to be.

In regard to GT's car... He's had OD in it for years, and last he and I spoke, IIRC, it was last year and we discussed some top end ideas for a new engine he was working on. It's not like he's changing oil and planning on it living for another 5 years.

PS - Don't confuse a modern casting aluminum/iron liner block with anything designed in the 50s or 60s and cast from aluminum. That's a big mistake.
 
ok - last question

are you saying a cylinder wall flexes up top, at the deck? ? ?

Dave - I think that snow has got to ya man....
 
ok - last question

are you saying a cylinder wall flexes up top, at the deck? ? ?

Dave - I think that snow has got to ya man....

It looks like your fighting an uphill battle...LOL! And even after all the 4" stroker engines running out there across america, Canada, Europe, etc...
I think too much theory and thinking gets guys into trouble. I've built way to many of these things to see any sign that they WEAR OUT quicker than an equally prepped engine of oem configuration. What that means is, if you build a 480HP 360 and a 480HP 410 there will be little to no difference in wear and tear.

One thing you guys forget is most people building the strokers are shooting for a min. of 500HP and that will always add wear and tear to an engine compared to a stock 240HP 360.

I guarantee you that if a 360 or 340 is built to make that same power, it will have to rev higher than the OEM ever planned on it revving...so maybe you should just not build a performance engine because the OEM didn't build it that way????

Now if you build a 600+HP 410 ofcourse it's not going to last as long as an OEM engine...shouldn't that be obvious??
 
Who builds a stroker for longevity or mileage??...anyone i know with one is doing what they're built for..RACING..which means they come apart just about every offseason to check/freshin things up..you want mileage and longevity build a 318..you want real power and tq build a stroker...
 
I know of a 10.0 street driven Cuda around town with a 465" stroker. I spoke with the owner but it was awhile back. IIRC it has 4 3/16" stroke crank. What concerns me is the step up in $$$$. He said he spent $25k on the engine w/custom crank,pan,everything. This was built at least 5 years ago so maybe the crank and pistons are readily available now but I haven't seen them.
 
Do you have a 500 + hp LS that your beating on right now, that gives you first hand experience on how it can outlast a older stroker? plenty of these new engines develop piston slap, you should be able to tell us why they do since you looked into how they clearance the newer engines, tell us for instance how the piston is sized to the bore..
There are thousands of strokers mainly the old 350/383 chevys that have over 100K



My dad does. Was putting out 700HP. Right before he broke it. But to be fair the thing got beat on very hard. 7000RPM+ was the norm. It was the titanium valve train that failed. That was our fault. Should of keep an eye on that stuff. Every thing else looked good when we opened it up. Stronger valve train is in the works along with a whipple charge for 1000+HP:snakeman:



I asked my dad why he has such big bores and only a 4 inch crank. He said it is not good to get a motor out of square. Stroke bigger than the bores. He said keep the stroke short so it will rev higher and quicker.
 

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So worst case scenario, you got to change rings every 15k+-. I think that would be worth it if it was the case. I do agree that people get a little to caught up in theory, however valid those theories maybe.

I think if you want a ton of torque without putting a big block in, you know what to do.

I mean come on 430 inches in a smallblock, how cool is that. Hughes has dyno charts on there 426 kit, like 450 foot pounds from 2600 rpms. So like I said, even worst case scenario, changing rings every 15k would be worth it to me. However I think that the lower power band and shift points would add to the engines life.

http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/dyno_tests_articles.php

Look at some of those numbers and tell me it isn't worth it.
 
It looks like your fighting an uphill battle...LOL! And even after all the 4" stroker engines running out there across america, Canada, Europe, etc...
I think too much theory and thinking gets guys into trouble. I've built way to many of these things to see any sign that they WEAR OUT quicker than an equally prepped engine of oem configuration. What that means is, if you build a 480HP 360 and a 480HP 410 there will be little to no difference in wear and tear.

One thing you guys forget is most people building the strokers are shooting for a min. of 500HP and that will always add wear and tear to an engine compared to a stock 240HP 360.

I guarantee you that if a 360 or 340 is built to make that same power, it will have to rev higher than the OEM ever planned on it revving...so maybe you should just not build a performance engine because the OEM didn't build it that way????

Now if you build a 600+HP 410 ofcourse it's not going to last as long as an OEM engine...shouldn't that be obvious??

I'm no rocket scientist, but I agree with ya 100%. Your also gonna waste your time telling people what "They know wont work and be a waste of time and money because the factory didn't do it"
You can tell people until your blue in the face, till there blue in the face and the world melts because the sun expanded due to it's life cycle is nearing the end, they will still argue with you that you don't have a clue on what your taking about and your just a dumb ***.

I've been done this road many times Brian. Welcome to the club! Have a beer (Slides one over) and have a stool at the bar. (Kicks a stool out.)


Who builds a stroker for longevity or mileage??...anyone i know with one is doing what they're built for..RACING..which means they come apart just about every offseason to check/freshin things up..you want mileage and longevity build a 318..you want real power and tq build a stroker...

My point exactly. But then again, people don't read full threads or they forget what they read 2 seconds ago. (Kicks the other stool out yells for bartender) If there was ever a order of things, well dude, you have the hammer and good aim.
 
I'm no rocket scientist, but I agree with ya 100%. Your also gonna waste your time telling people what "They know wont work and be a waste of time and money because the factory didn't do it"
You can tell people until your blue in the face, till there blue in the face and the world melts because the sun expanded due to it's life cycle is nearing the end, they will still argue with you that you don't have a clue on what your taking about and your just a dumb ***.

I've been done this road many times Brian. Welcome to the club! Have a beer (Slides one over) and have a stool at the bar. (Kicks a stool out.)




My point exactly. But then again, people don't read full threads or they forget what they read 2 seconds ago. (Kicks the other stool out yells for bartender) If there was ever a order of things, well dude, you have the hammer and good aim.
HOLY S#*T!! You sat me next to Stroked...LOL!!
Oh, and thanks for the beer (slides over the TAB)!
 
ok - last question

are you saying a cylinder wall flexes up top, at the deck? ? ?

Dave - I think that snow has got to ya man....

Hell no...lol. A question for you tho... Where do you measure the diameter of a piston?

Brian, I think a lot, yes, but I think simply saying because there's thousands out there running that they all will reach 50K miles is not thinking enough...lol. I agree the output and rpm of any engine is the key to life and that by asking the mechanical parts to perform at a much higher stress load (in this case meaning heavier side loading and faster average piston speeds regardless of rpm), they wear faster. Pretty simple really. Just like every other engine.
 
Last point i like to make, say $$$ isn't a problem, like those who buy a BMW M6, with a V10 for $90,000 on sale, what is the stroke and rpm of those V10's....answer the stroke 2.96 is what I found, red line 8,250. Piston size 3.62..that is important for emissions, larger pistons leave too much unburnt fuel. Why its a V10 and not a big piston V8..with a short stroke.

Funny that BMW where cost comes second, they went with a short stroke- high rpm engine, hmmm.

Oh sure, longevity means nothing, why many of these old cars just sit and look pretty and have a nice dyno spec sheet in the glove box. Meanwhile their owners think these new cars are awesome.
 
Back in 1970 the engine size limit for racing was 5 liters, what did 99.9% of the people do with the 340 to shrink the size down, smaller pistons by sleeving and making the walls stronger, nope, they used a 3 inch stroke crank and spun the engine to 8,000 rpms plus--and made close to 500 hp like BMW's new high tech engines.

Short stroke engines also have less fiction losses over longer stroke engines.

Its your money, build a 408 stroke SBM or just buy a 400 ci Mopar engine with a 3.38 stroke, that will be able to play with the big boys on the high speed Eways much longer without blowing oil smoke out of the tailpipes.
 
Dodge freak, have you looked at the dyno charts from hughes engines?

Also, this isnt for a race car, torquey, neck snapping street car
 
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