440 ci in A body,will it ever handle.....

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cudaboy 67

cudaboy 67

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hey, heres one for you, had car around 6 years,originally /6 its a rolling restoration..........not into the straight line thing,got a bike for that:thebirdm: anyhow, the car now is a 440ci, 4 speed,recently fitted 1.18 torsion bars and new monroe shocks<they aint up to it> i havnt got a sway bar at all, realistically will it ever handle reasonably? next on my list is a sway bar and some koni/qa1 adjustables plus im going to dump the large tyres and go with some avon zz3 and keep same size all round.whats your thinking folk? cheers and stay safe!:profilel:
 
cudaboy 67 said:
hey, heres one for you, had car around 6 years,originally /6 its a rolling restoration.......... realistically will it ever handle reasonably? whats your thinking folk? cheers and stay safe!:profilel:
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To answer your question, probably not. The reason: physics. Put nearly 60% of the weight in front and the result is terminal understeer when traction is lost. (In truth it ought to be around 55~56% front for a small block and 58~59% for the RB car. You can feel that 3% difference!)

Going to the same size tire all around will help as will front and rear anti-roll bars (sway bar, to some).

FWIW: When the 340 4-speed came out in 68 it would almost trailer a 383 car in a straight line. There was no contest when corners were involved. The 383 would always search for the outside edge of the curve. lol
 
It will handle phenomanally well.
Just don't turn it....
 
Well not if you just drop an all cast iron 440 in and make no other changes. If you use alum heads,intake,wp etc and relocate the battery to the trunk that will remove an easy 150 lb from the front of the car.Headers are also much lighter than cast ex manifolds. Monroe shocks are garbage in any kind of performance vehicle..get kyb's

Put a front sway bar on it as well and you may be surprized.
 
thanks for the advice, its an edelbrock dual plane intake,holly 750cfm,shumacker headers,battery in rear,ally rad,stock w,pump,good excuse to change heads to ally? many thanks all:cheers:
 
needsaresto said:
Well not if you just drop an all cast iron 440 in and make no other changes. If you use alum heads,intake,wp etc and relocate the battery to the trunk that will remove an easy 150 lb from the front of the car.Headers are also much lighter than cast ex manifolds. Monroe shocks are garbage in any kind of performance vehicle..get kyb's

Put a front sway bar on it as well and you may be surprized.
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I gotta second this, with all that done it should be the same weight or less then a SB car and with the bigger anit roll bars and big T bars it should handle nicely. Also might consider sub-frame connectors boxing LCA and a welded + skid plated K member with a lower rad brace like the one XV sells. (don't have to buy from XV but something like that)
 
2 Darts said:
FWIW: When the 340 4-speed came out in 68 it would almost trailer a 383 car in a straight line. There was no contest when corners were involved. The 383 would always search for the outside edge of the curve. lol
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The 4-speed weighs 75# more than a 727, so what's the big deal with weight. The big block A-bodies were down in power compared to their larger counterparts.
 
This is what I wrote in this post: http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=94024

I've driven a crappy handling 440 Dart, but it was slammed on the ground, /6 torsions, no sway bar, and 90/10 shocks. I've driven poor handling small block B-bodies, and decent handling 440 B-bodies. If weight's your concern, A-bodies can weigh more than some big block B-bodies. We're only talking about 100 pounds from BB to SB, and there's a lot that can weigh much more than that. Considering you can use aluminum parts on a BB, I don't think there's much to worry about. Here are some numbers:

Part....................Weight savings
aluminum heads..........58#
intake..................25#
water pump & housing....15#
headers.................25#
mini starter.............7#
Total savings:.........130#

Manual steering is 37# lighter than power, and a 727 is 75# lighter than an A-833, and who knows how much A/C weighs. Small blocks weigh the same as a slant 6, and the B motors are 95# more than that, so a manual slant 6 or small block with power steering and A/C (guess 60# for that) can weigh 200# more than a 383 or 528 A/T. Relocate the battery, and that's a 50# shift from front to back, so that small block could weigh 300# more up front than your /6 or small block pig.

Here are some real numbers from one of my cars:

'64 GT Dart, 273/904, manual steering and brakes with AC and about 1/3 tank of gas.
Without me
FL:932 FR:960
RL:698 RR:672

1892 front / 1370 rear
3262 total
58% front 42% rear

If I swapped in a big block, with the lighter parts, ditched the A/C, and moved the battery, I end up with this:

1747 front / 1420 rear
3167 total
55% front 45% rear

Less weight, and better front to rear weight ratio.
 
375inStroke said:
This is what I wrote in this post: http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=94024

I've driven a crappy handling 440 Dart, but it was slammed on the ground, /6 torsions, no sway bar, and 90/10 shocks. I've driven poor handling small block B-bodies, and decent handling 440 B-bodies. If weight's your concern, A-bodies can weigh more than some big block B-bodies. We're only talking about 100 pounds from BB to SB, and there's a lot that can weigh much more than that. Considering you can use aluminum parts on a BB, I don't think there's much to worry about. Here are some numbers:

Part....................Weight savings
aluminum heads..........58#
intake..................25#
water pump & housing....15#
headers.................25#
mini starter.............7#
Total savings:.........130#

Manual steering is 37# lighter than power, and a 727 is 75# lighter than an A-833, and who knows how much A/C weighs. Small blocks weigh the same as a slant 6, and the B motors are 95# more than that, so a manual slant 6 or small block with power steering and A/C (guess 60# for that) can weigh 200# more than a 383 or 528 A/T. Relocate the battery, and that's a 50# shift from front to back, so that small block could weigh 300# more up front than your /6 or small block pig.

Here are some real numbers from one of my cars:

'64 GT Dart, 273/904, manual steering and brakes with AC and about 1/3 tank of gas.
Without me
FL:932 FR:960
RL:698 RR:672

1892 front / 1370 rear
3262 total
58% front 42% rear

If I swapped in a big block, with the lighter parts, ditched the A/C, and moved the battery, I end up with this:

1747 front / 1420 rear
3167 total
55% front 45% rear

Less weight, and better front to rear weight ratio.
Click to expand...

Really good info! Lighter fibreglass parts could deliver a 50/50 ratio.
 
:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:Guys im so gratful for the help, i gotta be honest, id got to a point where i just thought it be hard to go back.... i did the 440 conversion myself 2 years ago, the car is a rolling restoration and used most weekends,somone<yeh usual story> put it in my head to go back to small block.....i have done so much and gone so far,1.18 torsion bars / stack of chassis restoration <front chassis,rear spring hangers manty hours>rebuilt the rear springs and yet to buy/fit sway bar / qa1 shocks and other stuff,id got to that point where i figured if its all done as best as can be will it drive and go round bends, theres no way im taking the 440 back out, that matched up nice with my 18 spline 4 speed.there is a light ant the end of the tunnel:love7:i already have relocated battery,got ally inlet,have manual steering box,will get lighter waterpump/housing and eventually get ally heads,two for the price of one, lighter and more power!!! and if it means I gotta go on a diet to then so be it!!! and those K member mods, well interesting, many thanks again for your time and information!
 
cudaboy 67 said:
:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:Guys im so gratful for the help, i gotta be honest, id got to a point where i just thought it be hard to go back.... i did the 440 conversion myself 2 years ago, the car is a rolling restoration and used most weekends,somone<yeh usual story> put it in my head to go back to small block.....i have done so much and gone so far,1.18 torsion bars / stack of chassis restoration <front chassis,rear spring hangers manty hours>rebuilt the rear springs and yet to buy/fit sway bar / qa1 shocks and other stuff,id got to that point where i figured if its all done as best as can be will it drive and go round bends, theres no way im taking the 440 back out, that matched up nice with my 18 spline 4 speed.there is a light ant the end of the tunnel:love7:i already have relocated battery,got ally inlet,have manual steering box,will get lighter waterpump/housing and eventually get ally heads,two for the price of one, lighter and more power!!! and if it means I gotta go on a diet to then so be it!!! and those K member mods, well interesting, many thanks again for your time and information!
Click to expand...

Good on ya! Just remember that for alum heads to perform optimally the compression ratio needs to be at least one point higher than with cast heads.This is due to the fact that alum bleeds heat much faster.
 
not to stir stuff up, but why go big block, you can get large cubes out of a small block, less weight, better fit, and in most case more hps than the car can handle....a well prep 410/413 small block will easily make 500hps, 550 if tweaked on some more, what is the weight difference between a 360 and a 440???
Dodge29
 
Large cubes make horsepower pretty easy and you`re practically there. I agree with the majority of the guys, the key is to knock off weight with some additional aluminum and fiberglass parts, then beef up your suspension with an anti-sway bar, good shocks, tires, boxed LCA`s, offset UCA bushings, etc.. High deck big blocks are significantly heavier than small blocks but you should be able to find a happy medium once you put the 440 on a diet.
 
dodge29 said:
not to stir stuff up, but why go big block, you can get large cubes out of a small block, less weight, better fit, and in most case more hps than the car can handle....a well prep 410/413 small block will easily make 500hps, 550 if tweaked on some more, what is the weight difference between a 360 and a 440???
Dodge29
Click to expand...

Because a big block will easily make 650 h.p..with the right heads it can make 900.
 
this is my philosophy:cheers:i know from past experiances with tuning bikes and other <non american>cars if i had spent a wedge $$ tuning a "smaller" engine in the back or my mind id always be thinking,,mmmm..........wonder what it be like bith more cc..s:tongue9: yeh its heavier but you starting ahead of the s.b and b.b theres scope for so much more! i got a sway bar coming, im trying to source some spindles to ditch the drums:bootysha:.ta again for help!:cheers:
 
Here was my combination for 8 years in a 73 Duster. All iron 440 with HP factory manifolds. Factory sway bar, Mopar frame connectors, 1.04 torsion bar, KYBs at all four corners. 215x60x15 up front 235x60x15 BFG radial T\As.
disc up front came off 76 Cordoba same car provided the big 15x2 1\2" finned rear drums. 8 3\4 rear end with 276 sure grip. car was an excellent handler, the wife drove the car with manual box. I still have 3 A-bodies that use KYB shocks and BFG radials because they work at a reasonable cost. Have also settled on firm feel level II power steering boxes because they provide a faster turning ratio and better road feel. Stay away from the exotic stuff that cost a fortune, and makes the car no fun to drive.
 
just to dig up an ol thread since last post im junking the hood and fenders basically as they f@@@ with rot and going fiberglass... reakon the hood in glass going to be a good few lbs lighter.........
 
Dodge29,


....wanna play?


PA241353.jpg
 
Along with torsion bars, shocks, and sway bar, don't forget the basics:

You checked the play in the ball joints and rubber bushings? Don't forget tires. I've gone from and to great to terrible, just by changing tires
 
There is obviously so much that can be done.. But bigger is always better..
High dollar solutions fix all this.. First if you really want a car that handles.. time to ditch the bars and get an alter-k-tion.. Also good for 150#. As stated all aluminum parts and get a modern trans..
 
yes, in upgrading to disks and now 4.5" i bought new wheels <rocket racing fuel> and 225 60 15 avon zz3 tyres all round, not actually had car on road with new wheels as awaiting fiberglass bodypanels but these tyres a motorsport variety found on bms audi and such, MUST be better than the general grabber :bootysha: lol!!!!! yeh i know there body issues! going to try find just an arch of similar shape and cut out n weld in.......
 

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