440 heat issues...help!

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1969Fish

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Location
Springfield, MO
440 .030 over
Steel crank, new rods, new bearings, TRW 12.5 pistons (ring gap is at 17) .530 lift cam with 1.6 440 source aluminum roller rockers, Eddy rpm performers, m1 intake, 1050 dominator on alcohol..all 16v system. We checked and double checked all clearances and verified they were all correct as assembling.

We had noticed that it was hard to turn over by hand, but blamed it on compression and cylinder pressure. Fired the car for the first time yesterday and the car built over 140 degrees of heat in less than a minute. Circulated fan and settled at 135. After 3 mins of run time the car was at 185 with fan running. The we jetted the carb from 188 to 196 in the front to maybe help slow the heat down. Didn't help. (192s in the back)

So after letting it cool and warm a few times it is still hard to turn over by hand. I noticed the valve covers were to hot to hold your hand on them after 3 mins of run time and the head you couldn't touch. So we pull the plugs to get rid of compression. Still hard to turn over..we now know something ain't right for sure, I take the rockers off and spin the motor over, everything spins freely no bad noises everything seems perfect.

These rockers are brand new with less than 10 mins of run time and the roller bearings have already started to groove the bottom of the shaft. Can the rockers cause this thing to be building heat in the top of the motor that it's reading hotter than it really is? The temp probe is on the top of the motor in the water pump.

Seems something ain't right with these rockers already creating a groove. Geometry is all correct with proper push rods and the adjuster is flush with the top of the nut. All the ball and cups fit perfect.

Any help would be great. Spent lots of time to make sure everything is correct internally and was figuring I would be trying hard to build heat as opposed to what I got now I'm confused.
 
How is the oil pressure ? Take out the distributor and spin the pump with a drill. How is oil flow to the heads, rockers ? If questionable I would pull it and check the bottom end. 2 things that generate heat quickly is engine friction due to lack of lubrication and lean air mixture caused by vacuum/intake leaks. A gasket set is cheaper than a ruined engine.
 
I primed it before first fire, oil pressure was 75 when it was cold and about 40 when warm. It's getting oil all the way up in the heads for sure. Vacuum leak somewhere is possible, all new gaskets everywhere in the motor. Rockers were covered in oil and when I pulled them off primed it again and oil was shooting up in the head thru the oil hole.
 
What was done with the heads before install? There have been reported issues with valve guide clearances being tight out of the box on the RPM,s. This could cause the rockers to eat into the shafts due to loading them. I'm not familiar with the 440 source rocker set ups so just throwing a thought out there.
 
185 degrees doesn't seem too hot. Nobody on the planet should be able to hold their hand on a 185 degree valve cover or cylinder head! What ring gap did the ring manufacture call for? What was your distributor timing? What kind of fan was running? How many ft-lbs of torque did it take to turn the engine over with the plugs out and the valve train installed? With the plugs out and the valve train off? Are you running a thermostat? If so what degree? What kind of water pump? Radiator? What was the oil temperature. The big problem is if the oil temperature is rising faster than the water temperature. Are the rockers gouging into the shaft or just making a visual mark on the shaft? Is this a solid or hydraulic? Of what duration? What is the lash or preload? Valve spring pressures? Did you visually inspect the rockers for oil flow to them during the prelube?
 
185 isn't too hot, however it is too hot after just a minute or two of run time on alcohol.. But it would continue rising at a rapid pace even with the electric fan on. Ring manufacturer on alcohol called for 18. We space the tops at a loose 17 and the bottoms are an 18. Never did get a timing light on it. Was told spring pressure is 135 closed and 300 open. The springs were bought and installed by motor shop. Has a thermostat that I hollowed out. Kind of water pump?? Bought the best one oreillys could get. Factory radiator. Didn't have an oil temp gauge though one is on the way. It's a solid mech flat tappet cam. I believe valve lash was set at 20 on intake and 22 on exhaust. Yes I checked the rockers for proper oil while priming There is a visual line on the bottom side of both shafts where the bearings run..one of them you can barely catch a fingernail on. Remember it has only ran for maybe 10 mins total and never above 2000 rpm.
 
Seems like a lot of heat for an alcohol engine. I'm thinking the ring gaps are a problem. I'd do a leak down on it and compression test, and pull the valve covers and take a peek at the upper valvetrain.
 

The standard ".004 per inch of bore gives you just under .0175". Given the higher compression I would have gone bigger, prob. .020, and the 2nd gap closer to .025. As was said - alcohol should take forever to get some temp. The only alcohol car I had experience with we started on gasoline to get some heat in it, then switched to methanol but it was mechanical injection. It also was turbo'd so the ring gaps were bigger.
 
18 shouldnt be too tight.
with alky it shouldnt get hot fast in fact its harder to get heat in motor.What oil are you using could it be diluted-or washing the cyl down? Ive seen where being too fat or not enough timing will cause overheat with alky.
 
Is the rad temperature keeping pace with the measured coolant temp? That is to say is the coolant circulating, as the pump does it's thing? 130* is about my limit for sustained contact on my palms. At 140* Ima backing off. at 150 ima outta there in a hurry.
I have no alcohol experience.
With alky, I have heard that it is very difficult to build heat in the first place, so I think you are doing the right thing by chasing friction.
In a gas engine;I suppose timing would be another thing. If the timing is late the fuel will continue burning in the headers. If it's too early, the cylinder will build a tremendous pressure spike, with resultant heat.
at'sallIgot
 
1.alky carbs dont like too high fuel press at idle(3-4 psi)at most/ steel n&s.can bypass and pour in fuel
2.very hard to read plugs rich or lean.
3. make sure timing is right.
4.start with orig jetting.
5 is the cam broken already?6.run without thermostat(if one is in there until problem is fixed)
 
Cam is not broke. Had a head off today. Checked piston to valve clearance had 80 thou. Put rockers back on on one side. Adjusted 3 cylinders and got so hard it took jerking to turn it over, trust me I've turned numerous motors over with plugs in and not hear this hard. Cylinder pressure is 175 to 180.
 
1969Fish said:
Cam is not broke. Had a head off today. Checked piston to valve clearance had 80 thou. Put rockers back on on one side. Adjusted 3 cylinders and got so hard it took jerking to turn it over, trust me I've turned numerous motors over with plugs in and not hear this hard. Cylinder pressure is 175 to 180.
Click to expand...

What in the top end would cause binding, frictions or make it hard to turn over only when valves are adjusted?? Not hitting piston. Car ran for 2 mins had 185 temp and rising with fan on. Shortly after drained fuel bowls to check jets. As I drained the bolts a little alcohol fell onto the intake and boiled rapidly like water in a smoking hot cast iron skillet. Why would the intake be that hot? Mind you we are adjusting valves with no plugs in. Is a 1.6 rocker on a 255 duration split duration cam with .570 total lift and eddy heads causing binding?

Also has anyone ever looked at the water holes on a 440 block compared to the water holes on eddy rpm heads? The 1009 gasket nearly blocks off all holes other than the two big ones on the out side of the head. Between each cylinder the gasket all but blocks off the water holes...
 
Verify tdc with piston stop. Had a similar issue in dads small block. Combination of tdc on damper not true AND I installed the crank gear retarded. That combination made for 2 bent pushrods just turning over by hand.
 
KB lists .0065 per inch of bore for drag alcohol. No street spec.But at the 3 minute mark I doubt (opinion) the pistons and rings are hot enough for that to be an issue.
Having to jump on the turning bar with just a few valves moving, in my opinion, tells most of the story.
But I also have to think that there is something else going on here. It's just too much heat way too soon, for just valve stems; and with alcohol sucking the heat out, and with no stat to stop coolant circulation.Most guys from what I have read,have trouble even getting up to 140/150, never mind 185.
Consider that approximately 1100 rpm (idle) times 3 minutes is just 3300 revolutions.To build the amount of heat you are experiencing, again, in my opinion, there is likely more than one problem going on.
I guess I'll throw one more thing out there;rocker-arm side-clearance. I had to open mine up. Not because of heat, but because a couple of them were wearing through the anodizing at a pretty good clip.
I tried to find a water circulation map, but, no luck yet.

Fwiw; I think I'm running about the same spring pressure on my gas-sbm, but my rockers are tip-rollers only. It's just too bad you didn't get time to put a light on it.(altho I don't think that is an issue,yet).
I hate to stick my nose in here, having no experience with BBs and only a little with alcohol, but I just can't help myself.
 
sorry, didnt mean broken meant broken in.Do you have another set of rockers to try?

try spraying some lube down those cyl that you adj valves on. Yes use eoic.
 
I'm thinking water circulation issue in the heads. You may be on to something with the head gaskets and holes. You must run some type of restriction in the cooling system to keep water in the heads. Either a T-stat or calibrated washer.....
 
Enjoying all the input.

.0065 x bore size for ring gap??

We are gonna check spring pressures again and take the inner spring out and put it back together with just the outer ring to see if it still binds, of course it will not be ran like that just a test.

Gonna pressure test the heads, and also try a set of 1.5 and a different set of 1.6 rockers we got laying around. Still don't explain heat problems. Maybe timing was waaay out causing heat issues???
 
I would go with .020 on top, .025 on 2nd.
Also an FYI - if you have true double springs and a flat tappet - you're not supposed to run the inners during the cam break in process. Take the inners out, run it for the cam break in keeping the peak rpm below 3500. Then after the cam's broke in add them back in. Otherwise you're asking for a wiped cam.
 
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