65 barracuda not charging PLZ help

[Kody meile]

hello all
first off, my car is a 65 barracuda, swapped 318,old stock ignition, i installed one the those reman dual field alternators from napa (60amp) , one of the FLD posts is cut because its internally grounded? which i did ground to the body any ways,... but any who i cant get the dam thing to charge.

I noticed theres no power coming from the FLD connector of the alternator thats connects to the FLD side of the VR, there is switched 12v with the key on and when the car is running going into the IGN side of the VR but nothing coming out of the VR on the FLD side, isnt there supped to be power coming from the FLD side of the VR to the alternator if there is 12v going into the IGN side? i did jump the FLD and IGN wires fromt the VR together and the voltage started rising almost up too 17v.

also is there a sense wire for the VR that starts an initial charge?
any info\ input would be awesome

 

[67Dart273]

The 69 / earlier charging circuits are dead nuts simple. You should go over to MyMopar and download the closest you can find for a shop manual, and an electrical diagram.

The VR only has two terminals (plus ground). One is the IGN power AND sense AND field power, and the other leads off to the alternator field

So.........

If you have not, check continuity from the field terminal on the alternator---with the field wire disconnected..........to ground. It should show only a few ohms. If so, "rig" a jumper wire direct from battery to the field terminal. Do not leave connected only long enough to run test

Start engine, monitor battery voltage and watch ammeter, and slowly bring up RPM. Voltage should increase, ammeter should show charge. Do not allow to climb over 16V

If this works, the alternator is OK "for now."

Make CERTAIN VR is grounded. Remove, scrape around mounting bolts and re-mount using star lock washers. Turn key to "run." With everything connected normally, "back probe" the green field wire at the alternator and see if you have any voltage. Should be approaching 12V. If nothing, the VR is bad

THE ALTERNATOR MAY HAVE caused the failure, either due to a bad field drawing too much current, or mistakes IN THE FIELD TERMINALS of the rebuilt resulting in a short, etc etc. Use your head

Read the service manual. There is a procedure in there to measure field current draw of the alternator

 

[Dana67Dart]

, isnt there supped to be power coming from the FLD side of the VR to the alternator if there is 12v going into the IGN side?

Yep like 6 to 10 volts give or take depending on the load on the alternator

i did jump the FLD and IGN wires fromt the VR together and the voltage started rising almost up too 17v.

Alt is good at this point.

Get a cheap voltage regulator and see where you are then.

My guess is that is your issue

 

[Murray]

What do mean "one of the Field posts are cut"? One of these is grounded by a screw, not by being "cut".

 

[Dana67Dart]

What do mean "one of the Field posts are cut"? One of these is grounded by a screw, not by being "cut

Isolated field alts (typically square back) converted to single field wire have the grounded field wire terminal clipped off so you can not accidentally put the field wire on it and short out your VR.

Note clipped terminal in the 7 to 8 o'clock position

 

[Murray]

Thanks for the education. If post is cut off- then it is grounded internally?

 

[66fyssh]

Check out this thread. Good information.

1966 Barracuda not Charging

Post #8 by @Mattax explains it well with photos.

 

[Dana67Dart]

Thanks for the education. If post is cut off- then it is grounded internally

Typically, but testing is best thing to do

 

[67Dart273]

Thanks for the education. If post is cut off- then it is grounded internally?

I would not "bet" either way. Check that the "insulated" one is not actually shorted/ grounded (missing/ broken hardware) and check that you have field continuity to ground. Make careful checks as the resistance of the field is fairly low. In other words do not mistake the low resistance of the field for a short and vice versa.

There has been lots of stories about aftermarket/ rebuilt alternators assembled incorrectly with incorrect or missing hardware. Sometimes the "grounded" one has the insulators installed and is not really grounded in that case.........and should be

 

[Kody meile]

so i went through a wiring diagram and made sure i have everything wired like it supposed to be, which i do, i put a another VR on and the alternator started charging....for about 10seconds.

i was getting 9.86-10 volts FLD current coming from the VR when it was working, so now i have no power coming from the FLD side of the VR, from whats been happening ive had 2 good VR's go bad and 1 bad one out of the box.

what kills a voltage regulator?to much FLD current draw? also i did notice that my if i take a probe light and touch the neg side of the coil when running the engine dies, im wondering if i have a grounding problem somewhere or too much voltage drop somewhere in the IGN2 wiring?

to add also i was looking at my IGN switch with a multimeter and noticed when i turn the key to run pos, im getting around 12.30 volts and at the same time IGN2 is hot with about 7.85-8 volts, isnt IGN2 supposed to only get hot when you turn the key to start and is supposed to cancel IGN1 out?

ive wiggled the bulk head connectors around too and thinking maybe IGN switch is going bad and causing some of the problems, please dont give me crap guys, im trying here lol i hate wiring

 

[RedFish]

Current will flow through ballast resistor either direction. The 8 volts you saw is back feed. Disconnect ballast resistor, test switch again.

 

[67Dart273]

so i went through a wiring diagram and made sure i have everything wired like it supposed to be, which i do, i put a another VR on and the alternator started charging....for about 10seconds.

i was getting 9.86-10 volts FLD current coming from the VR when it was working, so now i have no power coming from the FLD side of the VR, from whats been happening ive had 2 good VR's go bad and 1 bad one out of the box.

what kills a voltage regulator?to much FLD current draw? also i did notice that my if i take a probe light and touch the neg side of the coil when running the engine dies, im wondering if i have a grounding problem somewhere or too much voltage drop somewhere in the IGN2 wiring?

to add also i was looking at my IGN switch with a multimeter and noticed when i turn the key to run pos, im getting around 12.30 volts and at the same time IGN2 is hot with about 7.85-8 volts, isnt IGN2 supposed to only get hot when you turn the key to start and is supposed to cancel IGN1 out?

ive wiggled the bulk head connectors around too and thinking maybe IGN switch is going bad and causing some of the problems, please dont give me crap guys, im trying here lol i hate wiring

It very well could be that the rotor is out of spec or partially shorted. If you wander over to MyMopar you can download many factory service manuals for free. There is a procedure in there for checking rotor/ field current draw. Too much field current WILL certainly "kill" a VR

MAKE CERTAIN vr is grounded

Be CAREFUL when measuring field draw. A current measuring meter (ammeter) is in SERIES with the load, and not across it like a voltmeter. a milliameter/ ammeter is a DIRECT SHORT if you put it across the battery and WILL either blow a fuse in the meter or burn something up in the meter. Protection fuses such as for Fluke are expensive, and some cheaper meters (Horrid Freight) are not protected at all

(Another possibility in this chineseaoizationized age is that the VR was just junk)

 

[Mattax]

what kills a voltage regulator?to much FLD current draw?

It can.
A later revised squareback alternator has a much higher field current draw than the alternators these cars came with.
Seen something like 7 amps in a 1980s shop manual, vs somehting like 2.5 amps in most of our A-bodies.

getting 9.86-10 volts FLD current

That's voltage.
Current we'ld have to calculate based on how much votlage was lost going through the resistor.

 

[RedFish]

If the VR is only grounded to chassis by it mounting screws, the chassis ground jumper needs to be in place. Check resistance between VR case and batt' neg'.
many years ago, a buddy had 68 Nova. He says it would repeatedly loose alt' or VR or both. 'So I didn't have any test equipment with me, I say, "hell I dont know bud" while just standing and looking. When I noticed some oily electric tape dangling from where battery ground cable attached to block, I gave the wire a little tug. It pulled right out of that lug/terminal. That was the root problem.

 

[Mattax]

With the starter relay disconnected, and the key in Start,
the S2 wire will be at the same voltage as the ignition switch.
With the J2 (Run) wire disconnected at the ballast resistor, its voltage will be zero.

With J2 conencted at the resistor, you very well may find electricty flows through the regulator and rotor, especially if the distributor points are open.
The current flowing through the ballast will lose voltage due to the resistor.
Some voltage will also be lost going through the VR.

 

[Kody meile]

If the VR is only grounded to chassis by it mounting screws, the chassis ground jumper needs to be in place. Check resistance between VR case and batt' neg'.
many years ago, a buddy had 68 Nova. He says it would repeatedly loose alt' or VR or both. 'So I didn't have any test equipment with me, I say, "hell I dont know bud" while just standing and looking. When I noticed some oily electric tape dangling from where battery ground cable attached to block, I gave the wire a little tug. It pulled right out of that lug/terminal. That was the root problem.

i have my battery ground cable going to the block (brand new cable) crimped and tight and i have another one from the firewall to the intake clean and tight

 

[Kody meile]

It can.
A later revised squareback alternator has a much higher field current draw than the alternators these cars came with.
Seen something like 7 amps in a 1980s shop manual, vs somehting like 2.5 amps in most of our A-bodies.

That's voltage.
Current we'ld have to calculate based on how much votlage was lost going through the resistor.

forgot to mention my alternator is a 60amp

 

[Kody meile]

It very well could be that the rotor is out of spec or partially shorted. If you wander over to MyMopar you can download many factory service manuals for free. There is a procedure in there for checking rotor/ field current draw. Too much field current WILL certainly "kill" a VR

MAKE CERTAIN vr is grounded

Be CAREFUL when measuring field draw. A current measuring meter (ammeter) is in SERIES with the load, and not across it like a voltmeter. a milliameter/ ammeter is a DIRECT SHORT if you put it across the battery and WILL either blow a fuse in the meter or burn something up in the meter. Protection fuses such as for Fluke are expensive, and some cheaper meters (Horrid Freight) are not protected at all

(Another possibility in this chineseaoizationized age is that the VR was just junk)

ill look into the service manuals today, the area where my VR is mounted is clean bare metal and i even hooked a ground wire from it to the battery ground, i also bypassed my ammeter.

the multimeter im using is from orielly (PT performance tool brand)

 

[Mattax]

forgot to mention my alternator is a 60amp

Those ratings are whatever the manufacturer decides.
Ok. Maybe not quite that random but pretty close.

There are photos of the roundback, squareback and revised squareback here
Identifying Chrysler Alternators (1960-1976)

Knowing that will at least provide a range of what sort of current the rotor might draw.
Only way to know for sure will be to actually measure the current.

 

[pishta]

Here is a mechanical voltage regulator (2 lug) and you can see the thing makes full boogie 17+ volts for milliseconds then opens to 0, then closes again (~20-200 Hz) to average out the regulation of the alternator power INPUT. The alternator needs a little exciter voltage to make ANY output power. The points style regulated the excitation + circuit, while Mopar switched to negative - regulation with the isolated field alternators and the electronic VR switching (at >2KHz), this was deemed safer as a dead short would not cause a runaway alternator. This provided the more stable output the new for Mopar electronic ignition needed. Pull the top off and watch it while probing and poking the various contacts and watching the DMM voltage while its running.

Here is a pretty good writeup on a mechanical regualtor function. If the alternator proves good (take it to Oreilly or autozone and have them test it for free) uise this and your DMM and start probing and thinking. It will add up and you
ll be all the wiser.
"...all of the old (actually ALL) of the alternator systems work the same way, when you put battery voltage to the field the alternator will put out full output-this can be 16+ volts. when you disconnect the battery from the field the alternator will put out 0 volts. voltage can be varied by how fast the points cycle in the regulator. the actual figure you are looking for with a CHARGED BATTERY is 13.8-14.2 volts. with a low battery the voltage will be considerably higher, right after start the voltage will be higher, the voltage is regulated by the the voltage input by the 3 out of 4 terminals on the voltage regulator and the time differential of open/closed points between the battery and field.

there are 2 common failure modes on a mechanical regulator"
1-a break in the fine armature wire that controlls the points, this will result in 0 charge.
2-pitted points in the regulator, this usually results in the points sticking and you will get a 16+ volt charge, or just erratic readings.

checking for a bad regulator, you do that indirectly:
1-fully charge the battery and hook a voltmeter to it, it should read 12.5-12.8 volts.
2- start the car and look at the voltage on the voltmeter, it should read 13.8 14.2 after stabalizing.
3-if it reads around 16, replace the voltage regulator.
4-if it reads 12, unplug the regulator and jump from the battery to the field terminal.

A-if the voltage jumps to around 16 replace the voltage regulator.
B-if the voltage stay at 12 replace the voltage regulator and alternator (you could just replace the voltage regulator but if the regulator was allowing the alternator to charge at 16 V and it burned out it will damage the new regulator.
these are just the rules for mechanical regulators and have no correlations to todays charging systems..."

 

[67Dart273]

Bear in mind that especially on trucks and larger cars, there used to be a HEAVY DUTY regulator for Mopars for the 69 and earlier systems. It was larger, "square" than the small rectangular one. It would handle more field current