65 Dart 273 Engine Rebuild

[gtmopar]

Pictures are all wacked sorry

 

[PocketAces]

I found an eBay listing for domed 273 pistons, $345:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Plymouth-Do...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c66915d16&vxp=mtr

Here's another listing for the same pistons with rings, $400:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Plymouth-Do...Parts_Accessories&hash=item231f6b02d8&vxp=mtr

Does anyone know anything about this seller or these pistons?

Here's some info I found about the seller:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=199966

They seem to be affiliated with Internal Engine Parts:
http://www.internalengineparts.com/

If he's reselling Egge pistons, he's $83 cheaper.

I'll call tomorrow and get more information.

 

[PocketAces]

Found another eBay listing. This one is for Egge pistons for $365 plus shipping.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-67-Dod...r_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item416195b9a8

 

[PocketAces]

Once in a blue moon, you see new HiPo pistons (like Badger) on ebay, but sometimes just one bank.

I did some Googling, but I couldn't find anything on Badger HiPo pistons. Did they used to make them? Do they still make them?

 

[PocketAces]

I found an eBay listing for domed 273 pistons, $345:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Plymouth-Do...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c66915d16&vxp=mtr

Here's another listing for the same pistons with rings, $400:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Plymouth-Do...Parts_Accessories&hash=item231f6b02d8&vxp=mtr

Does anyone know anything about this seller or these pistons?

Here's some info I found about the seller:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=199966

They seem to be affiliated with Internal Engine Parts:
http://www.internalengineparts.com/

If he's reselling Egge pistons, he's $83 cheaper.

I'll call tomorrow and get more information.

I called the eBay seller this morning. These pistons are made by Rebuilder's Choice which is part of Kanter. Part Number PST2222A. They are availble in std, .030, .040, and .060 over.

I couldn't find anything about these pistons on the web, so I called Kanter and talked to their most pleasant sales representative. Did I mention they're in New Jersey? He didn't know anything, but said he would get back to me on Monday with the dome volume and compression height.

How do people make and sell pistons without knowing the specs of what they're making???

 

[Still Looking !!]

Diamond pistons in Clinton Township,Michigan will make you what ever size you want. Look them up, check them out

 

[PocketAces]

Diamond pistons in Clinton Township,Michigan will make you what ever size you want. Look them up, check them out

I called Diamond and talked to Jason. Man, what a difference. That guy really knows his stuff.

But they're not cheap. A set of flat top custom pistons with pins and rings would run around $1215. Domed would be $1286.

 

[PocketAces]

I got a call from the machine shop (L&R Engines).

One of my heads is cracked in two places. Apparently the guys in PA missed that. I still have the heads that I'm currently running. They are original to the car and a good date match.

The bores might clean up at .030 over, but definitely at .040 over. That's more than I thought, but there's a silver lining. I have a spare short block with .040 over forged TRW domed pistons. http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=192321

I ordered a cc kit from Amazon.com [ame="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00062Z85E/ref=ox_ya_os_product"]Amazon.com: Competition Cams 4974 Pro Head CC Kit: Automotive[/ame]

Once that comes in, I'll cc them so I know the dome volume before I pull them out. If the compression ratio works out to 9.5 or less then I'll use them.

 

[PocketAces]

I finally got my CC kit from Amazon. The first one arrived busted and the second one arrived while I was on vacation. So this weekend was my first chance to use it to measure the dome volume of the TRW domed pistons. The pistons were still in the old block they came in which is a good thing, because that's the best way to measure dome volume.

The first step is to find top dead center and measure the deck clearance. I did three different pistons. At top dead center the flat portion of the pistons were between .042 and .043 in the hole. I think factory commando pistons are supposed to be .011 in the hole, but are almost always deeper.

The next step was to use a dial indicator to move them down an additional .500". This gets the dome fully below the deck so that the volume can be cc'ed.

After that, I used some wheel bearing grease to seal between the piston and the cylinder wall and also to seal the plexiglass plate to the deck. I found that it works best if the engine is about a half a bubble out of level and the hole in the plexiglass is on the high side.

Next, fill the burrette up to the zero line with an alcohol water mix tinted to aid visiblity. I went to the store planning to buy some food dye, but instead found this wintergreen rubbing alcohol on sale. Overfill the burrette and then bleed out enough liquid to get to zero.

Set the burrette stand on the deck and position it so that the tip is just inside the hole in the plexiglass.

Dispense enough liquid to fill the area below the plexiglass. When the last of the air bubble is gone. Read the volume on the burette.

The calculation is basically to compute the volume of a cylinder with a diameter equal to your engine bore and a length equal to .5" plus the amount the piston is in the hole. Since this engine is .040" over and the pistons were .042 in the hole, I'm computing the volume of a cylinder that is 3.665" x .542" using pi times the radius squared times the length. Subtract from that number, the actual volume measured and the difference is the dome volume.

Below are my numbers for the three pistons I measured:


Amount in the hole .043 .042 .042
Length .543 .542 .542
pi 3.14159 3.14159 3.14159
Diameter in Inches 3.665 3.665 3.665
Radius in Inches 1.833 1.833 1.833
Volume (cubic inches) 5.728 5.718 5.718
cc per cubic inch 16.387 16.387 16.387
Volume (cc) calculated 93.873 93.700 93.700
Volume (cc) measured 83 84 86
Dome Volume (cc) 10.873 9.700 7.700

The results average to 9.424, but given the variability of the measurements, I would just say the dome volume is somewhere between 9 and 10 cc's.

 

[PocketAces]

The heads I plan to use are still on the car, but I wanted to have an idea what the chamber volume might be to plug into the compression ratio calculator.

I've read online that 2465315 heads are supposed to be 57cc. Since I have two other pairs of heads lying around, I cc'ed one chamber from each pair. One of them had a leaky valve so I had to repeat the measurement on a different cylinder. The two good measurements I got were 63 cc and 66 cc.

On the 66 cc head, the valves were clearly recessed deeper into the seats, either due to wear or a valve job without replacing the seats. Perhaps the 63 cc head also had some wear and a fresh set of heads with new seats will measure 57 cc?

 

[PocketAces]

Now that I have some more data, I plugged it into a compression ratio calculator to get an idea where I might land. But there are still some pretty big assumptions in the numbers.

The block I'm using might have a different deck height than the one I used to measure the dome volume so the pistons might be less in the hole, especially after a cleanup pass on the deck. The block I'm rebuilding has never been rebuilt before and so has never been decked. The other block was rebuilt at least once and may have been decked to arrive at .042 in the hole.

The heads I'm using could have a different chamber volume especially after replacing the seats.

I read a post here on FABO that the perma torque head gaskets are .054" thick. Not sure whether to believe that one. The consensus seems to be more like .040.

Anyways depending on how you combine these assumptions, I get a static compression ratio anywhere from 8.8 to 10.4.

Cylinder Head Volume (cc) 57 to 63
Piston Head Volume (cc) -10 to -9
Gasket Thickness (in.) .040 to .054
Gasket Bore (in.) 4.18
Cylinder Bore Diameter (in.) 3.665
Deck Clearance (in.) .030 to .042
Stroke (in.) 3.31
STATIC COMPRESSION RATIO 10.357 to 8.798

 

[PocketAces]

After I finished measuring the dome volume, I pulled the domed pistons out of the block they came in and took them out to the engine builder. They're going to clean them up and mic them and let me know if they're usable.

As far as compression ratio goes, I'm still on the fence. It seems like to use these pistons and keep the CR down below 9.5 so I can run on pump gas, I will need the heads to cc up around 61cc or I will need the head gasket compressed thickness to be up around .060.

If the pistons check out, I'm tempted to let the builder go forward with the short block so we can know where the pistons end up relative to the deck. That will inform us on what we need to do to the heads. But since they are forged pistons and need to run loose, it will be tough to switch to a flat piston if they wind up too high.

Another thing I might do is take one of the TRW pistons over to Egge and compare them side by side. Perhaps the Egge's have a lower compression height or smaller dome volume?

One other idea might be to mill a little material off the domes. Anybody ever done that?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Also, if you've cc'ed your 315 heads or if you've measured the compressed thickness of a perma torque head gasket, let me know what you found.

 

[seabee]

Very cool info, thanks for posting. I contacted Cometic a while back and they said they can make the SB Mopar head gaskets at whatever bore size I needed.

 

[PocketAces]

Today I measured a pair of 8553PT head gaskets. They're right around .054 uncompressed. Not sure how much they compress.

 

[toolmanmike]

Today I measured a pair of 8553PT head gaskets. They're right around .054 uncompressed. Not sure how much they compress.

Here's some thin ones. Not the exact ones I used but very similar. You can raise compression a half point over Fel Pro PT/blue gaskets.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOPAR-340-3...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2574075b78&vxp=mtr

 

[PocketAces]

Here's some thin ones. Not the exact ones I used but very similar. You can raise compression a half point over Fel Pro PT/blue gaskets.

Actually, I'm worried about getting too much compression. I want to come in around 9.5:1 so I can run on pump gas.

 

[PocketAces]

Here are some extra pictures from measuring the dome volume. These pictures were taken at TDC to give some idea of where the pistons set in relation to the deck. The flat portion of these pistons were .042" below the deck.

Again, this is not the engine I'm rebuilding. It's a .040" over block I bought for the domed pistons it had in it. Hoping to reuse these pistons in my new engine which is currently standard bore but will clean up at .040".

 

[PocketAces]

Since one of the heads on the new engine was cracked, I need to use the heads that are currently on the car. But before I tear the old engine apart, I need to rebuild and install the 4 bbl setup so I can get it tuned and debugged. Don't want to try doing cam break-in on an engine that won't run right. I'd also like to get a baseline MPG with the stock cam and worn out engine so I can see the change caused by the fresh rebuild and Isky E-4 cam.

So this weekend I rebuilt the 4 bbl and installed it on the old engine. Here's a link to the thread.

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=204359

 

[PocketAces]

I went out to Santa Fe Springs today to visit the engine builder, L&R Engines. They picked up a set of Egge domed pistons to compare to the TRW pistons I have. Both pistons are .040 over.

In the photos, the shiny piston is the Egge and the used piston is the TRW.

The pistons look similar enough. The dimensions of the domes are pretty close. The most obvious visible difference is the valve reliefs. The Egge valve reliefs are bigger and deeper than the TRW's. Not sure how many cc's different but I'm guessing at least 2 cc's. So if the TRW domes measured 10 cc's, then the Egges might be 8 cc's.

Next we attempted to measure the compression height of the pistons. Since the piston is domed above the pin bore, we had to measure indirectly.

TRW Pistons
0.492 half the pin diameter
+ 0.338 distance from the top of the pin bore to the bottom of the oil ring groove
+ 0.187 width of the oil ring groove
+ 0.764 distance from the top of the oil ring groove to the top of the piston
1.782 Compression Height

Egge Pistons
0.492 half the pin diameter
+ 0.342 distance from the top of the pin bore to the bottom of the oil ring groove
+ 0.187 width of the oil ring groove
+ 0.728 distance from the top of the oil ring groove to the top of the piston
1.749 Compression Height

So the Egge piston Compression Height is .033" shorter than the TRW pistons.


There was a similar difference when measuring the height from the center of the wrist pin to the top of the dome.

TRW Pistons
0.492 half the pin diameter
+ 0.338 distance from the top of the pin bore to the bottom of the oil ring groove
+ 0.187 width of the oil ring groove
+ 0.918 distance from the top of the oil ring groove to the top of the dome
1.935 to the Top of the Dome

Egge Pistons
0.492 half the pin diameter
+ 0.342 distance from the top of the pin bore to the bottom of the oil ring groove
+ 0.187 width of the oil ring groove
+ 0.879 distance from the top of the oil ring groove to the top of the dome
1.900 to the Top of the Dome

So the Egge piston Dome Height is .035" shorter than the TRW pistons. I don't mean the dome is smaller. Just that the distance from the center of the wrist pin to the top of the dome is smaller.


We did a third measurement, to the bottom of the dome on the back side, again with a similar difference.

TRW Pistons
0.492 half the pin diameter
+ 0.338 distance from the top of the pin bore to the bottom of the oil ring groove
+ 0.187 width of the oil ring groove
+ 0.790 distance from the top of the oil ring groove to the top of the bottom of the dome
1.807 To Bottom of the Dome

Egge Pistons
0.492 half the pin diameter
+ 0.342 distance from the top of the pin bore to the bottom of the oil ring groove
+ 0.187 width of the oil ring groove
+ 0.750 distance from the top of the oil ring groove to the top of the dome
1.771 To Bottom of the Dome

So the Egge piston is .036" shorter than the TRW pistons at the bottom of the dome.


Since all three measurement are shorter by roughly the same amount, it seems reasonable to assume that the dome volumes are about the same except for the difference due to the larger valve reliefs.

So the Egge pistons are approx. .035" shorter than the TRW pistons. Assuming a 2 cc difference in the valve reliefs you get about one full point less compression with the Egges.

If anyone has some factory commando pistons and can repeat these measurements it would be cool to know which piston best matches the factory slugs. I'm guessing the TRW's will be closer to the factory pistons.

 

[1wild&crazyguy]

Today I measured a pair of 8553PT head gaskets. They're right around .054 uncompressed. Not sure how much they compress.

Compressed, mine measured .046.FWIW.
And no, although the heads were advertised at 57cc....none really were, well maybe some, but none I have checked. The last set from bill were 66cc.

 

[toolmanmike]

I agree with your post. The Egge pistons are a point less compression than the TRW's and I would guess the factory rated 10.5/1 stockers. (I wish I had measured them before I took them out.) I can also say that the Fel Pro PT Blue head gaskets are a 1/2 point lower than these .025 compressed gaskets.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOPAR-340-3...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2574075b78&vxp=mtr
I have never seen compressed specs on the original steel shim gaskets but I'm sure they are in the .012-.015 range which is around another 1/2 point in compression along with their smaller bore size. Remember, when the 273 was built there were no other LA engines so Ma Mopar wouldn't have made a head gasket with a 4.0+ bore size like all the modern small block head gaskets. If you grind the valves and seats you will sink the valves and loose compression. (larger chamber) I didn't measure mine before and after although it would be interesting to know. These all loose compression along with the fuel friendly Egge pistons. Using them in your build with a .025 head gasket and a normal valve job should get you around 9/1. Mill the heads .030 and you're at 9.5/1. tmm

 

[PocketAces]

Using them in your build with a .025 head gasket and a normal valve job should get you around 9/1. Mill the heads .030 and you're at 9.5/1. tmm

Your numbers are definitely in the ball park depending on the assumptions made.

I still don't know the deck height of the new block, but assuming it's on spec at 9.6", the Egge pistons would be .073" in the hole while the TRW's would only be .040 in the hole. I also won't know the chamber volume of the heads I'll be using until I tear down that motor that's in the car. Once I have these two pieces of info, I'll be in a better position to decide which pistons to use.

With a 9.6" deck height and if the heads are 62cc, then the TRW pistons bring me in right at 9.5:1 with a perma torq head gasket. That's not unlikely. The block these pistons came out of must have had a deck height of 9.62 because the TRW pistons were .042 in the hole. The two other heads I've cc'ed came in at 63 and 66 cc's.

One down side would be if the block cleans up at .030" but I have to bore it to .040" to use these TRW pistons. Doesn't sound like a lot, but it could make the difference between being able to bore the engine one more time versus having to sleeve it. I do plan to keep the car for a long time.

Another down side I've heard about is that the forged pistons have to be installed looser than cast pistons. I've been told to expect to hear some additional noise until the engine warms up.

With the same assumptions (9.6" deck and 62cc heads) I could mill .035 off the block and use the Egge's with the perma torq head gasket to get 9.5:1.

The builder is going to bore the block to .030 and see if it cleans up. He's also going to measure the deck height for me. I'll pull the heads off the car after my camping trip and cc them. Then we will have all the information needed to make the decision.

 

[BillGrissom]

Re 273 head gaskets, look at my post where I bought an old engine gasket set for 273 only (before 318 LA) and measured the bores >4.00". This was after-market, and maybe someone swapped head gaskets.

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=69190&highlight=head+gasket&page=2

 

[winstoninwisc]

I HAVE A SET OF OEM 65 BARRACUDA EXHAUST MANNIFOLDS metal beaded and heat rizers still funtional cut the pipes so they still have the ears attached these are factory mint i soaked with oil to keep factory fresh if you need them also a full front to rear duel exhast i am cutting off i am pulling orig motor and dropping in a 408
anny 64-65 barracuda part u need including a full red interior or black buckets and the rear seat and devider what a KEWL STORRY evry dog has his day hope yours just started i hace a commando from highschool that thing used to scream for a 273
still have it but diff drive train 1 in pic is 273 originall out of idaho i have 3 yet but know where evry part in the world is if i dont have it i can get it ive had 9 of them 64-65 please keep us informed and call if i can help with any parts nice stert to a gr8 keeper never rode in a car that turns so many heads and they want you to pull over and talk yet only 1 evry at sho unless wife takes hers too nice find pm me please

any 1 else out there need from valve covers to trunk latched write me 64-65 valliant/ barracuda
i also have right now the nicest door seals u could imagine they are black look like nos but arent i am looking for an originall air filter no dents 1 red trunk carpet
thanks all NICE SCORE

 

[273]

Lot of great information, keep up the great work, I'm going a different route with my 273 I want zero decked custom forged pistons, .040" gasket and 50cc chambers for a 10:1 CR.