'89 roller-cam LA 360 w/Magnum heads - new roller lifters not pumping up

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sorry for crashing this (indeed very very interessting thread), but how bad, if the plunger is stuck into the lifter when trying to disassemble the lifter. I´m asking, coz i´m just started cleaning mine, and non of the 16 lifters from my engine will allow me to pull that plunger out. cld. it be the reason, that i have put them in solvent and put them i a ultrasonic bath ??

should that plunger move easily ? or is it common to use some "force"

everything else on the lifters works freely an looks nice after the ultrasonic bath - checkball etc..

cld it be that the plunger is hold by something like a "hydraulic vaccumm" ?
 
How big is the hole you drilled in the plug behind the tensioner plate? I read the other thread, but didn't see you mention the size. Drilling a hole there, is basically putting a "leak" in the oil galley.

I didn't drill the hole in the welch plug, that came from factory. I drilled the hole in the cam thrust plate in front of it (for without it, the welch plug hole would have little purpose to oil the timing chain). The hole in the plug can't be more than 1mm.

I'm not worried about it. The pressure loss can't be any worse than using the hollow bolt, and the tests I've run beforehand show that neither galley is starving for oil at all.

That's some good detective work right there!

Thanks! I think so too. Wish it hadn't delayed everything this long, but now I know what the engine needs - and I'll be able to sleep soundly on that decision.

sorry for crashing this (indeed very very interessting thread), but how bad, if the plunger is stuck into the lifter when trying to disassemble the lifter. I´m asking, coz i´m just started cleaning mine, and non of the 16 lifters from my engine will allow me to pull that plunger out. cld. it be the reason, that i have put them in solvent and put them i a ultrasonic bath ??

should that plunger move easily ? or is it common to use some "force"

everything else on the lifters works freely an looks nice after the ultrasonic bath - checkball etc..

cld it be that the plunger is hold by something like a "hydraulic vaccumm" ?

In general, getting the plungers out is a pain in the butt, as they are being held in by vacuum.

I've used a springy (and hardened) U shaped pin spanner (with the pins facing INWARDS so as not to gall the edge of the plunger) placed inside the plunger, and let the friction of the pin spanner trying to spread out as the grabbing mechanism (big PITA, but it works). You can also work a paper clip down into the center while doing this (bigger PITA) to release the pressure on the check valve.

That, and sometimes a stubborn plunger will come out if you bash the lifter head-first into a plank of wood. I don't really suggest it, but if you come across one that doesn't budge, it's a non-destructive way to find out whether the plunger is truly stuck in there. A plunger that isn't stuck should at least move a bit (if not to the very edge of the lifter) if you try this.

It'll keep fighting you all the way out though. Be prepared.

-Kurt
 
thanks cudak888 - so i guess i will have a lot of "fun" and even more improve my swearing skills

Bingo! Although it's much better to approach it as training in perseverance and patience. You'll damage a lot less that way ;)

If you've already put your lifters in solvent, that may or may not be part of the problem. Though the oil causes the vacuum against the walls, it also helps the plunger move easier in the bore.

I find that slaming the lifter head on a wood board to get the plunger as far out as possible is actually the best first step, if the lifter is still oiled up. Solvent will clean out any wood particles and should be done afterwards.

-Kurt
 
Very interesting, we learned some stuff. Mopar has used various methods of metering oil up to the rockers and valves over the years. and I drill a 1/8" hole in a grade 5 bolt for the top passenger side location of the cam plate to lube the timing chain, as this is not a pressurized location.
 
Very interesting, we learned some stuff. Mopar has used various methods of metering oil up to the rockers and valves over the years. and I drill a 1/8" hole in a grade 5 bolt for the top passenger side location of the cam plate to lube the timing chain, as this is not a pressurized location.

I just leave that bolt out.
 
The hollow bolt DOES NOT go into a pressurized oil galley.....its purpose is to alow "drainback" oil from the lifter valley to drain onto the little sheet metal tab, thus directing oil to the chain. The driver side oil galley is fed from a small (9/32 IIRC) hole up from the front main. The proper place to put the hole you drilled would be the passenger side plug, as you have a lot more volume of oil there due to the fact its the FIRST thing oiled, and is supplied by a 1/2 oil galley. That would be a negligible drain on the system. As it is now, your supplying 8 lifter bores AND your new hole with a much smaller passage, thus putting a lot more "leakage" percentage wise..... into the mix. Even the mopar engine bible mentions a small .020 hole in the plate on the passenger side..... Just food for thought.
 
The hollow bolt DOES NOT go into a pressurized oil galley.....its purpose is to alow "drainback" oil from the lifter valley to drain onto the little sheet metal tab, thus directing oil to the chain. The driver side oil galley is fed from a small (9/32 IIRC) hole up from the front main.

Good point - thought that it was fed from the gallery for some reason.

The proper place to put the hole you drilled would be the passenger side plug, as you have a lot more volume of oil there due to the fact its the FIRST thing oiled, and is supplied by a 1/2 oil galley. That would be a negligible drain on the system. As it is now, your supplying 8 lifter bores AND your new hole with a much smaller passage, thus putting a lot more "leakage" percentage wise..... into the mix. Even the mopar engine bible mentions a small .020 hole in the plate on the passenger side..... Just food for thought.

Question - even though the pressure is higher on the passenger's side, wouldn't it be a safer bet to have the hole downstream of the main crank journal? Putting it on the passenger's side pus it upstream.

Not that it really matters in the case of this particular engine - it's as stock a build as you could expect, with exception to the Magnum heads. If Mopar decided the hole was OK where it was and it lasted as well as it has since 1989 (as I said before, I didn't put the hole in the welch plug; it was there from factory), I'm happy with it.

-Kurt
 
16 new lifters installed - and tested - yesterday. I will post video of the speed at which they pump oil when primed. Rather slow:

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And today, I buttoned it all back together again. SUCCESS!

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Yea, yea - it's a B-body...

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Only problem I'm having is copious smoke from the right-side exhaust manifold, which was doused in oil more than once by the original LA roller lifters. I wiped it down top and bottom, but it still smokes to a rather alarming extent.

-Kurt
 
i was unaware you could put later magnum heads( pedistal rockers) on to a eariy roller TBI rail rocker roller block looks really nice
 
i was unaware you could put later magnum heads( pedistal rockers) on to a eariy roller TBI rail rocker roller block looks really nice

They're a drop-in fit on the roller-cam LA engines, provided you replace the lifters and pushrods in the process.

I'm actually quite curious at this point if it's possible to convert a late-model Diplomat with TBI to Magnum MPFI with relatively little effort, even to the fuel system...

-Kurt
 
They're a drop-in fit on the roller-cam LA engines, provided you replace the lifters and pushrods in the process.

I'm actually quite curious at this point if it's possible to convert a late-model Diplomat with TBI to Magnum MPFI with relatively little effort, even to the fuel system...

-Kurt

Every diplomat has a carb, even 89's. Would probably work on a TBI truck.
 
Every single one of them? Geez. No love by ChryCo for the Holley TBI's in the cars, eh?

-Kurt

Yessir. Every single one. It would be really rare to see one that doesn't have a Holley 6280 2-barrel on it.

Weirdly some of them have driver's side airbags. But I believe that's 89 only.
 
Yessir. Every single one. It would be really rare to see one that doesn't have a Holley 6280 2-barrel on it.

Weirdly some of them have driver's side airbags. But I believe that's 89 only.

That would make the only F/M/J-body with fuel injection the '81-83 Imperials.

Given the reputation of the Imperial's TBI system, I can see where the carbs reigned supreme for a while longer on the car line.

Too bad the Imperial EFI tank isn't reproduced by Spectra now. It would make Magnum conversions on F/M/J's a ridiculously easy task.

-Kurt
 
That would make the only F/M/J-body with fuel injection the '81-83 Imperials.

Given the reputation of the Imperial's TBI system, I can see where the carbs reigned supreme for a while longer on the car line.

Too bad the Imperial EFI tank isn't reproduced by Spectra now. It would make Magnum conversions on F/M/J's a ridiculously easy task.

-Kurt

Well, you basically just need the Aeromotive Phantom setup, a new tank, some AN fittings, regulator, and whatever type of fuel line you're into. Pretty easy, but not cheap. I have this in my Duster now. Works well!
 
Well, you basically just need the Aeromotive Phantom setup, a new tank, some AN fittings, regulator, and whatever type of fuel line you're into. Pretty easy, but not cheap. I have this in my Duster now. Works well!

You hit the operative phrase: "Not cheap." Usually a factor in Diplomat builds ;)

Even though my Satellite is a rough 4-door, I'd rather it and my Valiant be known as the "Money Pit" than a Diplomat.

There's a nice '87 Dippy on Craigslist right now, zero rust, running, $1k - but do I really want to bother with it if the price turns to $3k by the time I'm happy with it? Not really, given what I already have in the driveway.

I'll freely admit that the Diplomat is probably more confidence inspiring behind the wheel than either the A-body or B-body though. As tight and clean as the Valiant is, there's something unnerving about it - feels as if you're driving a 40-mph-capable skateboard. While I haven't really had the B-body out anywhere but out of the driveway and back, it has that same feeling. Probably not enough interior sound insulation.

-Kurt
 
You hit the operative phrase: "Not cheap." Usually a factor in Diplomat builds ;)

Even though my Satellite is a rough 4-door, I'd rather it and my Valiant be known as the "Money Pit" than a Diplomat.

There's a nice '87 Dippy on Craigslist right now, zero rust, running, $1k - but do I really want to bother with it if the price turns to $3k by the time I'm happy with it? Not really, given what I already have in the driveway.

I'll freely admit that the Diplomat is probably more confidence inspiring behind the wheel than either the A-body or B-body though. As tight and clean as the Valiant is, there's something unnerving about it - feels as if you're driving a 40-mph-capable skateboard. While I haven't really had the B-body out anywhere but out of the driveway and back, it has that same feeling. Probably not enough interior sound insulation.

-Kurt

My A-body feels really, really confident now, but it does have most of the Hotchkis parts and 18's. Mine feels really good even at 80 mph.

I think the main things that need to be done to these is rod-end strut rods because the strut rod bushings are too loose. You also want more caster. Those things alone help a ton.
 
Congrats on solving the lifter problem...Hotchkis is pricey,but damn nice...
 
I'll freely admit that the Diplomat is probably more confidence inspiring behind the wheel than either the A-body or B-body though. As tight and clean as the Valiant is, there's something unnerving about it - feels as if you're driving a 40-mph-capable skateboard. While I haven't really had the B-body out anywhere but out of the driveway and back, it has that same feeling. Probably not enough interior sound insulation.
As others say, that is just the suspension not being upgraded/modernized. Better springs and T-bars and good fresh bushings and steering parts, good tires, and most importantly, a good set of gas shocks up at the level of Bilsteins, will astound you. My son has finished off the upgrades on his '65 Barracuda, that the PO started, with a set of Blisteins for X-mas. We have agreed that is has moved up a notch from being a cool car to an amazing car..... it is not far behind our '09 Challenger in road feel now.

And let me add my congrats on the lifters! Very good.

You asked about the oil hole in the passenger side gallery... the pressure drop there by adding that small hole will be pretty much non-existent; that gallery is fed directly from the pump and filter.
 
What brand lifters did you end up using?
 
They're a drop-in fit on the roller-cam LA engines, provided you replace the lifters and pushrods in the process.

I'm actually quite curious at this point if it's possible to convert a late-model Diplomat with TBI to Magnum MPFI with relatively little effort, even to the fuel system...

-Kurt
Yeah. I'll probably end up with a Magnum-infected LA top end motor if I get bored for too long with motivation. Problem I've had lately is keeping gas in projects- lol. I dunno how you can make so completely sure to run things out of gas that haven't even seen the road in months. Nothing like starting to diagnose a no-start and remembering to check and see if it's empty first.

That would make the only F/M/J-body with fuel injection the '81-83 Imperials.

Given the reputation of the Imperial's TBI system, I can see where the carbs reigned supreme for a while longer on the car line.

Too bad the Imperial EFI tank isn't reproduced by Spectra now. It would make Magnum conversions on F/M/J's a ridiculously easy task.

-Kurt
In-tank pumps are not unlikely to've been retained and they were also added to some Ms to solve vapor-lock issues.
 
My A-body feels really, really confident now, but it does have most of the Hotchkis parts and 18's. Mine feels really good even at 80 mph.

I think the main things that need to be done to these is rod-end strut rods because the strut rod bushings are too loose. You also want more caster. Those things alone help a ton.

I'll take a look at the strut rod ends. Even though the Valiant is a super low-mile survivor (22k), the rubber under it likely isn't as much a "survivor." I did put the offset UCA bushings on it though.

It's not really the steering though - I know that's off (when I mounted two SBP 14" wheels with large tires in front as a test, all the steering issues vanished). The feeling is more as if you're driving Buford Justice's post-bomb Pontiac from Smokey & The Bandit III - all the outside noises are eerily audible inside, as if the weatherstripping was shot (but it's not).

As for the Satellite - it's tie rod ends are completely shot, so pretty much everything there needs going over. I shouldn't be passing judgement on it.

That said, I'm not particularly keen on throwing a whole bunch of expensive suspension components on a virtually all-original 4-door. I might go LBP so I can run 14's and be done with it, as I bought the disk conversion for the Satellite, only to realize that the Viper brake conversion (on the '73+ A-body spindles) would be a heck of a lot more fun :)

As others say, that is just the suspension not being upgraded/modernized. Better springs and T-bars and good fresh bushings and steering parts, good tires, and most importantly, a good set of gas shocks up at the level of Bilsteins, will astound you. My son has finished off the upgrades on his '65 Barracuda, that the PO started, with a set of Blisteins for X-mas. We have agreed that is has moved up a notch from being a cool car to an amazing car..... it is not far behind our '09 Challenger in road feel now.

And let me add my congrats on the lifters! Very good.

You asked about the oil hole in the passenger side gallery... the pressure drop there by adding that small hole will be pretty much non-existent; that gallery is fed directly from the pump and filter.

The Valiant, for all the complaints I have with the steering, is pretty stable around corners for an old car with no sway bars to speak of.

Figured the hole wasn't an issue. It wasn't an issue since '89, and Mopar put it there. Not to say that the engineers didn't screw up often, but the LA engine series seems to have survived pretty immune to bean counters and bad engineering over its entire life.

What brand lifters did you end up using?

Sealed Power (Federal Mogul). All of them marked Made in Mexico. One was exchanged because it was not smooth in the bore, but the rest were good straight out of the box.

Yeah. I'll probably end up with a Magnum-infected LA top end motor if I get bored for too long with motivation. Problem I've had lately is keeping gas in projects- lol. I dunno how you can make so completely sure to run things out of gas that haven't even seen the road in months. Nothing like starting to diagnose a no-start and remembering to check and see if it's empty first.

In-tank pumps are not unlikely to've been retained and they were also added to some Ms to solve vapor-lock issues.

With the right donor parts on your doorstep, the Magnum head swap is ridiculously tempting for the roller cam engines. Very easy swap, and a no-brainer for anyone dealing with a burnt valve or other head issue.

I haven't seen any of the in-tank M pumps - are these the "Sawzall a Spectra tank and shove a Magnum pump unit" kind of conversions? Not really a fan of the school of flattening a ribbed tank for the purpose - or the clearance that's required above them. Also a royal pain to mig weld a drop plate onto them. Save that effort for bodywork, I say...

-Kurt
 
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