A-904 Shifting from 1st to REVERSE!

[doc540]

What in the Sam Hill causes this?

Will shift into reverse just fine.

Shifts into drive just fine.

When automatically upshifting out of first it goes into REVERSE instead of 2nd.

'61 Lancer Slant Six

#-o

 

[Woods74]

When did you adjust the bands?

 

[RustyRatRod]

I bet that's a real jolt.

 

[AJ/FormS]

It's not the governor.lol
Are you absolutely sure it's going into reverse, or just locking up in two gears at once?
I have studied the hydraulic circuits and just can't see a possible connection for reverse to operate with the manual valve in the drive position.I don't think it's a hydraulic issue.
Has anybody experienced a sprag (roller clutch) failure?

 

[fishy68]

I bet that's a real jolt.

A long time ago I rode in a buddy's Buick that did that and your right, it's quite the jolt. I think he said his ended up being a broken sprague but a torqueflite doesn't have a sprague in the middle like a Turbo 350 so I'm not sure what to say

 

[fishy68]

What in the Sam Hill causes this?

Will shift into reverse just fine.

Shifts into drive just fine.

When automatically upshifting out of first it goes into REVERSE instead of 2nd.

'61 Lancer Slant Six

#-o

Did it just start doing this out of the blue?

 

[TrailBeast]

Sounds like a combination of a band and planetary failure both somehow.
Are you positive it's going into reverse and not just locking up on the 1-2 shift?

Whats in the pan?

 

[oldkimmer]

..............did u adjust the front band too tight or the rear 1, what happens if u let it shift automatically, or u manual shift it? same same?.................kim........

 

[doc540]

..............did u adjust the front band too tight or the rear 1, what happens if u let it shift automatically, or u manual shift it? same same?.................kim........

Only happens during automatic shift.

Local shop just rebuilt it.

thanks

Anyone else have any ideas?

 

[TrailBeast]

Only happens during automatic shift.

Local shop just rebuilt it.

thanks

Anyone else have any ideas?

Oh, well then the "local shop" needs to fix it.

 

[oldkimmer]

........So then they did some kind of a shift kit or vb swap?.........like TB says, they need to fix it....................kim...........

 

[AJ/FormS]

Oh well then they didnt put all the check-balls back in,and or put the 1-2 shift valve in backwards. Easy fix. No wonder I couldn't see it in the hydraulics. I assumed it was a sudden developement. VB needs to come down for a peek.

 

[TrailBeast]

Oh well then they didnt put all the check-balls back in,and or put the 1-2 shift valve in backwards. Easy fix. No wonder I couldn't see it in the hydraulics. I assumed it was a sudden developement. VB needs to come down for a peek.

Yea AJ I was going through the powerflow chart trying to figure out where that could have happened and why also, and came up with the same thing. ( valve or ball in the wrong places)

Only thing that made any sense.

Still, the shop needs to get it back instead of being able to blame the OP for something.
I wouldn't even pull the pan.

 

[doc540]

It was a complete rebuild and shifted fine for about a week.

Took it back in for the final kickdown adjustment (could that affect it?) and after test driving it for a while, I got ready to leave and when I pulled onto the road it started going from 1st to reverse.

They readjusted the band, but that didn't fix it.

And, of course, the "local shop" needs to fix it, and they've agreed to.

Thought someone here might have experienced the problem before and that it might be common and simple fix with this transmission.

 

[TrailBeast]

It was a complete rebuild and shifted fine for about a week.

Took it back in for the final kickdown adjustment (could that affect it?) and after test driving it for a while, I got ready to leave and when I pulled onto the road it started going from 1st to reverse.

They readjusted the band, but that didn't fix it.

And, of course, the "local shop" needs to fix it, and they've agreed to.

Thought someone here might have experienced the problem before and that it might be common and simple fix with this transmission.

It very well could be simple, but it sure isn't common.
Maybe the valve body didn't get tightened down or something like that, so the fluid is crossing over into the rear band servo instead of to the front band.
Who knows, as I have never seen or even heard of one doing that before. (4 decades or more with them)

A lockup of two gears maybe, but never into reverse.

 

[doc540]

It very well could be simple, but it sure isn't common.
Maybe the valve body didn't get tightened down or something like that, so the fluid is crossing over into the rear band servo instead of to the front band.
Who knows, as I have never seen or even heard of one doing that before. (4 decades or more with them)

A lockup of two gears maybe, but never into reverse.

Thanks

Don't second and reverse have something mechanically in common?

 

[TrailBeast]

Thanks

Don't second and reverse have something mechanically in common?

Not that I remember.
1st and reverse, yes.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Yes the do have something in common. They're in the same box,lol.
When reverse is selected,almost all the other circuits are locked out, and the line pressure rises to whatever the pump can put out. Only the TC is charged,and the L/R band & hi-drum, are engaged.

Hey I think I see it, If the KD servo has failed, as in a oil pressure is passing through it or around it, this will force the band to release, and the pressure will feed into the direct clutch. That's the half of it, now how to apply the L/R band?
Got it! If for whatever reason the 1-2 shift valve fails to move (be it; the governor fails to command it, or the valve is stuck, or the wrong spring is on it),then the L/R band will be energized just as if manual low was selected. Since the L/R band is used in both low, and reverse, it's being stuck on would go un-noticed, even in neutral, cuz the other clutches involved are dumped in both neutral and park.
So, I mighta bin wrong in an earlier post. The issue could in fact be hydraulic. It's just a little hard to imagine. At least for me...
I know it's a long shot to have 2 errors in a rebuild, but if the shoe fits.

 

[TrailBeast]

Yes the do have something in common. They're in the same box,lol.
When reverse is selected,almost all the other circuits are locked out, and the line pressure rises to whatever the pump can put out. Only the TC is charged,and the L/R band & hi-drum, are engaged.

Well, there's all that.
I didn't want to get into it that far because I didn't think really mattered to the actual issue.

Here's one of the pages I use to find out things like this, but I don't see any reason for what is going on in these diagrams.
They start showing what is active in what gears about half way down the page.
They also ignore the planet sets, so you have to take those into account on this problem.

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/transmissions/torqueflite-tom-hand.html

 

[doc540]

They should have it pulled by Wednesday and, perhaps, opened by the end of the week.

They think it's the low sprag.

And thanks for all the info.

 

[oldkimmer]

.............Definitely not the sprag, u wouldn't have 1st gear...........kim.......

 

[AJ/FormS]

^^That's right;

 

[doc540]

The only clue I can think of is it only started doing the first to reverse shift after we'd adjusted the kick down linkage.

I test drove it for a couple of miles, kicking it from 2nd to 1st and 3rd to 2nd a few time.

Brought it back to the shop and talked with the owner a few minutes.

Got in it to drive to home and BAM! 1st to Reverse.

Did it twice, so I drove back to the shop in 1st.

 

[TrailBeast]

The only clue I can think of is it only started doing the first to reverse shift after we'd adjusted the kick down linkage.

I test drove it for a couple of miles, kicking it from 2nd to 1st and 3rd to 2nd a few time.

Brought it back to the shop and talked with the owner a few minutes.

Got in it to drive to home and BAM! 1st to Reverse.

Did it twice, so I drove back to the shop in 1st.

I just don't see the kickdown adjustment doing that or anything remotely close to it.
All it does is raise and lower the pressures, and this HAS to be a mechanical failure of some sort in my mind.
Something broke, or something cracked and is leaking fluid by, or both.

 

[oldkimmer]

...........I would have to say the kd band is too tight and it tore the lining off and now the band is sticking to the drum..........kim.......