additional weight ?

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Locomotion said:
When I had a home built 2x3 frame Challenger with ladder bars, I added weight - at least 60 lbs, forgot exactly, but the car became more consistent and and I won more bracket races.

When I first got my current car with SS springs, I tried some Mopar automatic drag shocks. Under bad track conditions, not only did it spin, but it also wheel-hopped. For stiffer shocks, I debated between the Mopar "stick" shocks and Ranchos, settling for Ranchos. It still spun on rare "bad track" days, but it never wheel-hopped again!

My theory is that the harder a car leaves, the stiffer rear shock is needed. If rear shocks that are too loose are used, I figure that the amount of separation is too much and too violent so the springs have to "spring" back. Once it starts, it can't be controlled by soft shocks and you get wheel-hop, especially when the track isn't good.

You don't want to have shocks too loose on the front either. But a lot depends on how well the rear suspension works. OEM shocks are fairly loose on extension, but I don't like the easy compression because it won't help keeping the weight transfered and can cause oil pan issues when coming down from a wheelstand. I know of one instance when hard finish line braking also crunched an oil pan on a friend's 360 Volare. He had fairly new OEM shocks.
Click to expand...


Jpar runs a stick.
 
YR please help me with what I have! Did you just cyber spend another grand? LOL I'm really at the end of my money this year. This winter I have to look at things again (money wise). The videos you seen probably from last year with old slant 6 Springs,air shocks, Front adjusted all the way up against shocks that were too short. The Wheel hop seems to be more at PIR with no traction then it Woodburn. I have been using a little bit higher tire pressure than I normally do.
 
j par said:
YR please help me with what I have! Did you just cyber spend another grand? LOL I'm really at the end of my money this year. This winter I have to look at things again (money wise). The videos you seen probably from last year with old slant 6 Springs,air shocks, Front adjusted all the way up against shocks that were too short. The Wheel hop seems to be more at PIR with no traction then it Woodburn. I have been using a little bit higher tire pressure than I normally do.
Click to expand...


I think the vids were from earlier this year that you posted here.

The money deal sucks and for most of us not named Rockefeller it probably will.

Do what you can to slow down the hit of the tire. Stiffen the extension in the rear and also the front. I'd really like to see you put the 2 step on the clutch pedal. It's cheap and fairly easy to do. That way you take a variable out of tuning (that would be the driver, and anything you can do to eliminate a variable is a good thing) and you can change the RPM at launch to control how hard the clutch hits the tire.
 
Pinion snubbers work just fine lose the traction bars they're for G.M's...
 
yellow rose said:
You need to make the front shocks stiffer and put 25-50 pounds AS FAR FORWARD AS YOU CAN GET IT.

Being a stick, you should have no less that Viking double adjustable shocks on both ends.

I didn't see wheel hop in the video you posted. I saw too much clutch, beating the tire into the track and the tire pushing back and unhooking. You have to control the motion of the axle with the shock. The spring is just there to hold the car up. That's why SS springs are among my least favorite things. And pinion snubbers. And unicorns.


EDIT: if you are using a steel flywheel that has to be the first thing to go. You need and aluminum wheel. Unless you have new video, you are just killing the tire. Anything you can do to manage hit will make the car faster. That is clutch tune up, flywheel weight, shocks, instant center (when you can tune for it) and launch RPM with a two step on the clutch pedal.
Click to expand...
YR is right on here......Do you still have that "new" killer bite clutch? if you do, from what I saw in your vid, your always going to hit that tire to hard. At your level, without the RIGHT clutch setup, you just going to be inconsistant, and break parts.
 
Is your car Jacked Up in the rear when it is sitting? If you have it jacked up you are already using up your shock travel. Lower the back of the car and the front.
 
I have a 440 Source Billet flywheel, ACT Technologies diaphragm (sorry YR it's what I have) clutch and a hays disc now instead of the 6 Puck act came with it was just too light switch.
replicaracer43 said:
YR is right on here......Do you still have that "new" killer bite clutch? if you do, from what I saw in your vid, your always going to hit that tire to hard. At your level, without the RIGHT clutch setup, you just going to be inconsistant, and break parts.
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I
 
The Tires stick out too far they will rub if I set the car down any further
D-50394 said:
Is your car Jacked Up in the rear when it is sitting? If you have it jacked up you are already using up your shock travel. Lower the back of the car and the front.
Click to expand...
 
I think the car has possibly two tents at the start and maybe a tenth or two in turning down the track, so I'm pretty happy where it's at. I'm just working on tuning things this year suspension wise, timing, and carburetor tuning wise. Things I can do on the cheap
 
I didn't say a thing! My first car in high school was a 73 Javelin and it had traction bars I wonder what I was supposed to tell it being an American Motors car and all. LOL
yellow rose said:
The trick is to never TELL your Chrysler you have traction bars on. If you don't tell it, it won't know it's not a GM car,

WTF?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?????!!!!!!!!!!????????????
Click to expand...
 

Jpar, sorry, didn't realize it was a track car. I thought it was a street car.
(LMAO! WHAT was I thinking!)

"B & "E" body shocks are longer.
I believe it is "Mr. Gasket" has shock extenders.
Perhaps some play in the traction bars? You may be to stiff.
 
Buy wheels with the correct back space and and you can lower the rear. I had 28/10.5 W's on the back of my Demon with SS springs and 2 inch lowering blocks. Had a best 60 ft. of 1.36. The leaf springs were moved in and it was not mini tubbed.

Demon 2 001.jpg
 
The only problem I have with your very kind suggestion is the very very first word. please refer to the first sentence on post #7 LOL
D-50394 said:
Buy wheels with the correct back space and and you can lower the rear. I had 28/10.5 W's on the back of my Demon with SS springs and 2 inch lowering blocks. Had a best 60 ft. of 1.36. The leaf springs were moved in and it was not mini tubbed.

View attachment 1714934133
Click to expand...
 
No need to fabricate anything, unless you want to. Shock extensions are already available and fairly common. I'm betting you can find a used set for almost nothing.
 
I appreciate your affordable suggestions LOL. the rear shocks are set as stiff as possible and I'm currently making some kind of bracket to give them more travel. I can disconnect the front shocks and make them more stiff but I'd like a little bit more reasoning if you will on that please. As far as putting the two step under the clutch I looked into that recently and noticed my clutch is pretty close to the floor to get disengaged and my adjustment is all the way out so somehow I gotta come up with some more clutch adjustment to get the pedal higher so I'm not hitting the rev limiter when I push the clutch all the way in or disengage the clutch. I have not been using the two-step at all and I was getting RPMs up quite high at launch the last time I was at PIR. Again it's just getting use to that whole way the motor Rumbles and misfires if you will it just feels wrong and it's something I need to get used to and do some more tests and tuning with.
yellow rose said:
I think the vids were from earlier this year that you posted here.

The money deal sucks and for most of us not named Rockefeller it probably will.

Do what you can to slow down the hit of the tire. Stiffen the extension in the rear and also the front. I'd really like to see you put the 2 step on the clutch pedal. It's cheap and fairly easy to do. That way you take a variable out of tuning (that would be the driver, and anything you can do to eliminate a variable is a good thing) and you can change the RPM at launch to control how hard the clutch hits the tire.
Click to expand...
 
Sorry I know how it is to be poor. That is why I took a whole lot of measurements before I bought my HoleShot wheels. They are 10 in.
 
Well I wouldn't quite consider myself poor, but I have set some budget limitations for the car each year to not let things spiral out of control ( and I'm at least 1k over that). I have a very supportive and understanding wife that I mean to keep. Purposely had the rear end cut to that size for the ability to run the inset modern rims that I have for the street which ironically I rarely do. Besides I like the old school look of the body kind of sitting up on top of the tires and old school is kind of the same as the car. if I'm missing out on a 10th or two down the track I can live with that
 
j par said:
I appreciate your affordable suggestions LOL. the rear shocks are set as stiff as possible and I'm currently making some kind of bracket to give them more travel. I can disconnect the front shocks and make them more stiff but I'd like a little bit more reasoning if you will on that please. As far as putting the two step under the clutch I looked into that recently and noticed my clutch is pretty close to the floor to get disengaged and my adjustment is all the way out so somehow I gotta come up with some more clutch adjustment to get the pedal higher so I'm not hitting the rev limiter when I push the clutch all the way in or disengage the clutch. I have not been using the two-step at all and I was getting RPMs up quite high at launch the last time I was at PIR. Again it's just getting use to that whole way the motor Rumbles and misfires if you will it just feels wrong and it's something I need to get used to and do some more tests and tuning with.
Click to expand...

You are going to have a tough time of it with that flywheel. That is 30 pounds of steel turning whatever your launch speed is. I can't do the math but you can bet it's at least double that of a 15 pound FW. The best way to look at is this simple way (I'm a pretty simple guy).

You need to drive a nail (please notice I didn't say pound it...if you pound on it, they normally goes sideways) and you have the ability to swing an 8 pound hammer (flywheel) and you can swing the hammer 30 times a minute, and that is your RPM. No matter what, that 30 times a minute is pretty much unchageable, just like launch RPM you can move it a bit but not much so we will keep them it as a constant. With your 8 pound hammer you can drive your nail in in 30 seconds and it goes in straight, and is nice and flush with the wood and nothing is bashed to hell. That is hitting the nail 15 times. One day, you can't find your 8 pound hammer. Your wife needed the dam thing so she "borrowed" it but didn't "borrow" it back. Typical wife. Anyway, all you have is a 16 pound hammer there. You still hit the nail 30 times a minute. But you have DOUBLED the the weight of the hammer. You are still must hit the nail 15 times. Since you DOUBLED the weight of th hammer the nail is flush with the wood in only 6 hits but you hit it 7 more times!! You have now bashed the nail half way through the board, beat the hell out of the wood and splintered it.

That is exactly what happens to the tire and the car when you have too much FW weight. You beat the hell out of it. Even when it don't need or want it. You say lower the RPM but you can't, because you have a minimum RPM to make the car move. Raising the RPM makes it worse.

Now you have to band aid it some how. That is where a tuneable clutch comes in. You can slow down clutch lock up with counter weight and back down the base pressure. You don't want it to slip (that is the single most stupid term I have heard, and because non-stick people who shouldn't even THINK to open their mouths about clutches say you need a slippe clutch and that is total horseshit...if it slips it's JUNK but if it is a CONTROLLED APPLICATION of the clutch, that is two totally different deals) you want to delay lock up to help the tire/suspension/chassis deal with the hit. I know right now you can't do that, but that's why i ***** so hard about it.

Ok what to do? The shocks are just as important as the springs and traction device. In fact, I can argue that the shock is more important than the spring, because the spring just holds the car up. It's a bit different with leafs but principally the same. Shocks, shocks, tuneable shocks. You need a double adjustable shock, both front and rear, especially with a stick. Slush boxes (especially the junk powergilde) even with a trans brake are NOT the same. You need to separate compression from extension. If you have a single adjustable shock, you can only change either extension or compression. And the 90/10, 80/20, 70/30 mean nothing except that on the 90/10 setting it comes apart 9 times easier than it goes together.

In the rear, you need the shock to come apart as SLOW as you can get it. The problem is that usually it makes it go together slower, or stiffer. The exact opposite you want. You want the compression side (or bump for old guys) to be soft enough to deal with changes in track surface (hence bump) but stiff in extension (rebound for old dudes) to keep the tire from getting its brains beat out. Hard to do with what you have so do what you can making it stuff in extension.

Up front, if the shocks are loose, or fast in extension then the front end comes up too fast, and increases the HIT at the rear tire, just what you don't want or need. On top of that, because the front comes up so fast, it hits the stops very hard and upsets the whole chassis. So up front you want to slow down the extension as well. Slow down the motion of the front and rear to help the tire not get its *** kicked. It's all about giving the tire what it wants and keeping it happy. It's like you getting punched in the gut. The harder you get it and th more times, the sooner you barf. I like real world examples.

Also remember that the tire is a spring too. When you hit it hard and fast, it tends to spring back. That is some of what i watched in your video. The tire is getting hit so hard and so fast that it is springing back. And you can hear it in the video. The tire is hooking and unhooking and hooking and unhooking until the track speed gets high enough to overcome that.

I hope that all who read this understand why I ***** so much about tuneable clutches. Granted, the only fix for flywheel weight is an aluminum FW and that is spendy but I would have never told you to use a still FW. I run aluminum in my DD car and my wife drives it with a Detroit locker and sintered iron clutch on the street. You don't need all that hit. I'm glad you got rid of the disc. That helps. A bunch. The 2 step would also help but it needs to be on the pedal. That way, every time, the 2 step lets go the same time, every time. You can then use it as a tuning tool. Fix that up and it will help you a ton.

For now, watch that video over and over and look at the tires while listening to the engine. You will see what I'm talking about.

Work with what you have now and learn all you can. Work on your 2017 budget now and over the winter, you can sell the clutch and FW and maybe the shocks. Then budget everything for chassis. Sounds like the engine won't need anything so all your effort needs to be suspension and tuning it.

I suggest start reading Chris Alstons chassis book (if you can find it...I have one from "back in the day" and it's a damn good book for a start) and then get Dave Morgan's "Doorslammers" book. He gets into shock/IC/gear relationships and is a very good book.

IMHO, you have enough engine to get to very low 11's if not the 10's. Just help your tires from getting their faces beat in every run.
 
Well first and foremost AJ/FormS is in serious trouble with his long-winded crown. LOL. And thank you for the explanation I work better that way. Again I'm going to work on the rear shocks and getting them a little bit more room for more extension and I will take the tops of the front shocks off and adjust them stiffer as suggested. I will also look into trying to get some more adjustment on the clutch so I can put the two step in underneath it. As for now I'm going to just try and use it. And see if I can get used to it. And again this year I've been using 14 pounds in my tires and I think I'll go back to 12 any thoughts on that.
yellow rose said:
You are going to have a tough time of it with that flywheel. That is 30 pounds of steel turning whatever your launch speed is. I can't do the math but you can bet it's at least double that of a 15 pound FW. The best way to look at is this simple way (I'm a pretty simple guy).

You need to drive a nail (please notice I didn't say pound it...if you pound on it, they normally goes sideways) and you have the ability to swing an 8 pound hammer (flywheel) and you can swing the hammer 30 times a minute, and that is your RPM. No matter what, that 30 times a minute is pretty much unchageable, just like launch RPM you can move it a bit but not much so we will keep them it as a constant. With your 8 pound hammer you can drive your nail in in 30 seconds and it goes in straight, and is nice and flush with the wood and nothing is bashed to hell. That is hitting the nail 15 times. One day, you can't find your 8 pound hammer. Your wife needed the dam thing so she "borrowed" it but didn't "borrow" it back. Typical wife. Anyway, all you have is a 16 pound hammer there. You still hit the nail 30 times a minute. But you have DOUBLED the the weight of the hammer. You are still must hit the nail 15 times. Since you DOUBLED the weight of th hammer the nail is flush with the wood in only 6 hits but you hit it 7 more times!! You have now bashed the nail half way through the board, beat the hell out of the wood and splintered it.

That is exactly what happens to the tire and the car when you have too much FW weight. You beat the hell out of it. Even when it don't need or want it. You say lower the RPM but you can't, because you have a minimum RPM to make the car move. Raising the RPM makes it worse.

Now you have to band aid it some how. That is where a tuneable clutch comes in. You can slow down clutch lock up with counter weight and back down the base pressure. You don't want it to slip (that is the single most stupid term I have heard, and because non-stick people who shouldn't even THINK to open their mouths about clutches say you need a slippe clutch and that is total horseshit...if it slips it's JUNK but if it is a CONTROLLED APPLICATION of the clutch, that is two totally different deals) you want to delay lock up to help the tire/suspension/chassis deal with the hit. I know right now you can't do that, but that's why i ***** so hard about it.

Ok what to do? The shocks are just as important as the springs and traction device. In fact, I can argue that the shock is more important than the spring, because the spring just holds the car up. It's a bit different with leafs but principally the same. Shocks, shocks, tuneable shocks. You need a double adjustable shock, both front and rear, especially with a stick. Slush boxes (especially the junk powergilde) even with a trans brake are NOT the same. You need to separate compression from extension. If you have a single adjustable shock, you can only change either extension or compression. And the 90/10, 80/20, 70/30 mean nothing except that on the 90/10 setting it comes apart 9 times easier than it goes together.

In the rear, you need the shock to come apart as SLOW as you can get it. The problem is that usually it makes it go together slower, or stiffer. The exact opposite you want. You want the compression side (or bump for old guys) to be soft enough to deal with changes in track surface (hence bump) but stiff in extension (rebound for old dudes) to keep the tire from getting its brains beat out. Hard to do with what you have so do what you can making it stuff in extension.

Up front, if the shocks are loose, or fast in extension then the front end comes up too fast, and increases the HIT at the rear tire, just what you don't want or need. On top of that, because the front comes up so fast, it hits the stops very hard and upsets the whole chassis. So up front you want to slow down the extension as well. Slow down the motion of the front and rear to help the tire not get its *** kicked. It's all about giving the tire what it wants and keeping it happy. It's like you getting punched in the gut. The harder you get it and th more times, the sooner you barf. I like real world examples.

Also remember that the tire is a spring too. When you hit it hard and fast, it tends to spring back. That is some of what i watched in your video. The tire is getting hit so hard and so fast that it is springing back. And you can hear it in the video. The tire is hooking and unhooking and hooking and unhooking until the track speed gets high enough to overcome that.

I hope that all who read this understand why I ***** so much about tuneable clutches. Granted, the only fix for flywheel weight is an aluminum FW and that is spendy but I would have never told you to use a still FW. I run aluminum in my DD car and my wife drives it with a Detroit locker and sintered iron clutch on the street. You don't need all that hit. I'm glad you got rid of the disc. That helps. A bunch. The 2 step would also help but it needs to be on the pedal. That way, every time, the 2 step lets go the same time, every time. You can then use it as a tuning tool. Fix that up and it will help you a ton.

For now, watch that video over and over and look at the tires while listening to the engine. You will see what I'm talking about.

Work with what you have now and learn all you can. Work on your 2017 budget now and over the winter, you can sell the clutch and FW and maybe the shocks. Then budget everything for chassis. Sounds like the engine won't need anything so all your effort needs to be suspension and tuning it.

I suggest start reading Chris Alstons chassis book (if you can find it...I have one from "back in the day" and it's a damn good book for a start) and then get Dave Morgan's "Doorslammers" book. He gets into shock/IC/gear relationships and is a very good book.

IMHO, you have enough engine to get to very low 11's if not the 10's. Just help your tires from getting their faces beat in every run.
Click to expand...
 
^^ oh yeah and the analogy using an eight pound hammer and a 16 pound Hammer to drive a nail I completely understood, but I've been a construction Foreman most of my life and the most I've ever used is a 22 ounce Hammer to drive nails and that's considered pretty big so using an 8 Pound Hammer if you don't get it in one lick and ruin the board you need to go back and figure out how to use one! LOL
Edit: LMAO
 
Last edited:
A home made set of cal tracs and your old springs would've been so much simpler and cheaper too. LOL
 
j par said:
Well first and foremost AJ/FormS is in serious trouble with his long-winded crown. LOL. And thank you for the explanation I work better that way. Again I'm going to work on the rear shocks and getting them a little bit more room for more extension and I will take the tops of the front shocks off and adjust them stiffer as suggested. I will also look into trying to get some more adjustment on the clutch so I can put the two step in underneath it. As for now I'm going to just try and use it. And see if I can get used to it. And again this year I've been using 14 pounds in my tires and I think I'll go back to 12 any thoughts on that.
Click to expand...

Shhhhhhhiiiiit I can't keep up with AJ no how.

As for tire pressure, it may be counter intuitive but you may need to run 16-18 pounds of pressure. The softer the tire, the more likely it will be to spring back when smacked. But it is a testing deal. It may like 12 pounds.

As a very general rule of thumb, if your tire wants more pressure you are hitting it too hard. If it wants less pressure you can hit it harder. This is considering the the general pressure range the tire should be in.

I used a 14x32 tire and if I was hitting it too hard I'd be at 8-8.25 pounds. When it was correct it would be fastest at 6.25-6.5 pounds. If I had to hit it harder I would be under 6 pounds but it gets a bit hairy when they were that low. The butt pucker factor was on tilt.
 
j par said:
As far as changing any suspension parts I can tell you money is absolutely no object, because I don't have any! I've got the brand new SS Springs, cheap Summit drag shocks set hard as I can get them, and a dana 60 that I made has no pinion snubber. so I have traction bars that are set with no slack in them. And my tires are near brand new Hoosier's 28 x 10.5 x 15. I'm getting serious wheel hop at the line and the car is pretty much dedicated to the Dragstrip. Also I have the Lakewood drag shocks up front that are adjusted as soft as possible. at this point I was looking at some free old school tricks or maybe trying to make the trick of my own with my Twisted thinking...
Click to expand...
traction bars and s.stock springs ? the springs will work w/o a snubber and shouldn`t have trac bars on them. always go one weight lighter on the springs if u have a choice.
 
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