AFR Blue Hornet Mopar cylinder head, Charles Servedio

[NC Engine Builder]

Extremely valuable information being discussed here, thanks guys!

 

[Earlie A]

Sounds much like the effect of a pushrod pinch. Or in another way a flow ball.

I have done a good bit of flow work with the same manifold he is using and basically the same head (ProMaxx and Speedmaster), but I have never put the manifold on that small of a port. With a head that flows 290-310, it is not uncommon to see a 20 cfm drop in flow on the top end. I've never seen an increase at those flow rates.

 

[PRH]

Since your heads are already flowing way more than what Charles has gotten so far, it’s easy for me to imagine that whatever the exact area/shape thats allowing the extra flow from your efforts is just hampered by the added restriction of the manifold.
As you said, you haven’t tried it on a head that small.

Of course, there’s always the possibility he did a better job on the manifold ;)

 

[PRH]

Here’s what I’m seeing from that last video……..
The manifold attached to the head helped stave off the onset of the SSR going turbulent by about another .050-.100” of lift, which allowed a little spike in flow to show up.
But aside from that the intake being attached was causing a flow loss……as you’d expect.
From his flow sheet-

A-head only
B-intake mounted

Lift———A/B
.400—238.4/234.2
.500—269.0/251.6
.600—272.0/265.2
.700—269.6/276.0
.800—268.0/255.7
.900—271.2/255.0

Avg —264.7/256.2

 

[Newbomb Turk]

The manifold being attached is effectively plugging off an area of the port, which is allowing the air to stay attached at the SSR to a slightly higher lift, which is how the gain is realized.

Years ago, I was porting some Indy 360-1’s that nosed over at high lifts.
If I just stuck my finger across the bottom of the radius inlet entry it would calm the port/SSR right down.
I had the customer send the intake to me, and as I remember it, the flow at higher lifts(after the point where the SSR was giving up) was higher with the manifold on vs off.

My .02 about the 5th cut is…….. for the application the heads will be used on, it was a step backwards.

Yup. And in my testing, the longer and the straighter the runner the longer the air stayed on the SSR.

Also, it’s my opinion and since I did testing this way that around .400 lift or so the pressure drop on the port isn’t 28 inches.

I tested different lifts at different pressures because testing .100 lift at 28 inches is much lower than the port sees when running and 28 inches is too high for over .400 lift.

I should have kept my notes.

 

[Earlie A]

Here’s what I’m seeing from that last video……..
The manifold attached to the head helped stave off the onset of the SSR going turbulent by about another .050-.100” of lift, which allowed a little spike in flow to show up.
But aside from that the intake being attached was causing a flow loss……as you’d expect.
From his flow sheet-

A-head only
B-intake mounted

Lift———A/B
.400—238.4/234.2
.500—269.0/251.6
.600—272.0/265.2
.700—269.6/276.0
.800—268.0/255.7
.900—271.2/255.0

Avg —264.7/256.2

I bet both columns have the about same peak at around 276, but in column A it’s happening either just before or just after 0.600 lift. In both columns the ‘crash’ occurs when the velocity over the SS reaches the same number. The manifold does change how the air is moving through the port so there would be SOME differences.

 

[Earlie A]

Also, it’s my opinion and since I did testing this way that around .400 lift or so the pressure drop on the port isn’t 28 inches.

I tested different lifts at different pressures because testing .100 lift at 28 inches is much lower than the port sees when running and 28 inches is too high for over .

I very much agree with this. I would really like to dyno test the same head ported 2 different ways. One would be focusing on mid lift flow with a moderate crash or stall at 0.600 lift. Next would be the same port with the short turn worked a little more to eliminate the crash or stall. Port 2 would have the prettier curve and a higher peak. Port 1 would have more 0.350-0.550 lift. My money would be on port 1 for the very reason you suggested. If we do a good job getting air in early the depression is not 28 inches at max lift. So in the running engine does the flow really crash?

I know you like the 50 degree seats and I’m not arguing that. I’d like to test that as well. On the flow bench the 45 degree seats naturally create a good port number 1. 50 degree seats naturally make a port number 2. The mix and match game would be fun.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

I very much agree with this. I would really like to dyno test the same head ported 2 different ways. One would be focusing on mid lift flow with a moderate crash or stall at 0.600 lift. Next would be the same port with the short turn worked a little more to eliminate the crash or stall. Port 2 would have the prettier curve and a higher peak. Port 1 would have more 0.350-0.550 lift. My money would be on port 1 for the very reason you suggested. If we do a good job getting air in early the depression is not 28 inches at max lift. So in the running engine does the flow really crash?

I know you like the 50 degree seats and I’m not arguing that. I’d like to test that as well. On the flow bench the 45 degree seats naturally create a good port number 1. 50 degree seats naturally make a port number 2. The mix and match game would be fun.

The biggest thing I’ve seen on steeper than 45 degree seats is the candles and the widths of them.

I’m picking up my heads on Monday and I’ll double check the cutter numbers so I know for sure what I was using.

I know it’s difficult to get the angles and the widths right with stones. And I had three sets of cutters (six if you count the 55’s) for inline wedge, canted valve wedge and hemi dong beater stuff.

They all take different valve jobs.

If you were closer I’d say do the heads up and we could test them on my pump and see what happens.

 

[Earlie A]

is the candles and the widths of them.

hemi dong beater stuff.

on my pump and see what happens.

Would you please have your wife translate this into East Tennessee English? Especially the first one and the last one. Not sure I want to know about the middle one.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Would you please have your wife translate this into East Tennessee English? Especially the first one and the last one. Not sure I want to know about the middle one.

I suck. I didn’t proof read it before I posted.

Should say “is the angles and the width of them”.

The guy who gave me my first education on steeper than 45 degree seats was very particular about understanding that an inline wedge, a canted valve wedge and a Hemi never take the same valve job, even with the same seat angle. When he was giving me the part numbers for the three different sets of cutters he gave me the last two part numbers and these are for Hemi dong beaters. Meaning he thought the Hemi (for the most part) was, you know, something that would make you pleasure yourself. Hence, dong beater. So for 25 years anytime I say Hemi anything when it comes to stuff like that I say Hemi dong beater because I thought it was hilarious. That’s what happens when you have a ninth grade level education I suppose. I still think it’s funny. I guess you had to hear him say it.

I meant if you were closer we could put it on my dyno and flog it. Again…ninth grade educated slang I suppose.

I hope that clears it up.

 

[PRH]

In the 5th cut video he mentions that it’s Sunday…….and since he posted it yesterday, it happened at least a few days ago.
So, more than likely the 6th cut(and beyond?) is already done.
At the end he also says he doesn’t want to go where he thinks he needs to…….sooooooo…..did he or didn’t he?

I wonder how anxious he’d be about doing another set of those. =^o

 

[273]

 

[Earlie A]

Just flowed an Edelbrock Magnum head, so here it is added to the flow results posted earlier. I bought this head as a blemished head and it had no valve job. I put a 35/45/60/75 valve job in and did a light blend of the sharp factory ridges in the throat. This should make the Magnum much like the ProMaxx and the AFR. The Speedmaster valve job is not as good as the other three. I was a little surprised by the results.

 

[273]

Just flowed an Edelbrock Magnum head, so here it is added to the flow results posted earlier. I bought this head as a blemished head and it had no valve job. I put a 35/45/60/75 valve job in and did a light blend of the sharp factory ridges in the throat. This should make the Magnum much like the ProMaxx and the AFR. The Speedmaster valve job is not as good as the other three. I was a little surprised by the results.

View attachment 1716455667

View attachment 1716455668

Of the few builds out there the magnum edelbrocks seem to dyno slightly better then the LA ones.

 

[PRH]

The chamber is quite a bit different isn’t it?
How similar is the SSR to the non-magnums?

 

[Earlie A]

The chamber is quite a bit different isn’t it?
How similar is the SSR to the non-magnums?

Yes, chamber is different. SSR is similar in the center but the corners are different. This is not just a copy of the LA head. It is an entire redesign.