AFR Heads

[B3422w5]

If I find a set of unmolested W5’s would you be interested in porting them?

W5 heads had very poor quality control issues. Porosity was terrible.
I get how some people are so Mopar driven they wouldn’t consider running something else not made by Ma Mopar if there is such a thing these days.
Having run W5 stuff longer than I have anything else, because of the poor quality of the castings they are the last thing I would invest in at this point. Especially as nobody makes headers for them these days, the Mopar intake offerings were so so, etc, etc. not to mention buying them and getting them to a usuable state is expensive these days compared to 20 years ago. Very expensive
Looking at that level of power, I would buy Indy heads these days and not think twice.
Once you have had to throw them in the garbage after lots of money spent on them because of leaking badly( sprinklers) your perception is different than if you haven’t dealt with it.

 

[Killer6]

lol that’s the truth.

In 1988 Chrysler guys were appalled that I was shifting a bracket car at 8200.

It got worse years later when on certain days I shifted at 9k.

It’s a viscous cycle that keeps retarding the parts we can buy.

These manufacturers know that 90% of these guys will never see over 7k and an honest 600 hp so they know that the already Uber small market is even smaller than it appears.

That’s why they keep making the same head with a different name on them.

It’s not new though. In the late 1990’s and early 2000’s there were probably 15 or even 20 different 23 degree small block Chevy heads.

Outside of what I consider minor port volume differences they were the same head.

Magazines would do shootouts to show a clear winner but the only real winners were the manufacturers who got cheap advertising knowing they wouldn’t get shat on in the results.

Sad but true, a basically stock 340 w/pocket ported J's, a decent cam/intake/carb will be good for shifting @7000-7200 easy, just barely getting off the ground at that point....stock rods & heavy-assed old-school forged TRW's & all......

 

[Newbomb Turk]

If I find a set of unmolested W5’s would you be interested in porting them?

Maybe.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

It’s expensive to race, even bracket race. I know, have done it a good bit, forever.
These days, with the advent of stroker cranks, first the 3.79 deal, and more recently 4 inch plus stuff, there is zero need to turn a bunch of rpm.
Bracket racing is all about repeatability and reliability. Rpm isn’t a need to do that.

Exactly.

That’s why when you walk through the pits you see a power glide in everything. It has dumbed down racing.

Chassis tuning on bracket cars is almost non existent, unless you consider shoe polish a tune up.

And you are shitting yourself if you think bracket guys aren’t turning 8k plus today.

If it’s a Chevy in a FAST car it’s turning 8k plus. Bet on it.

It’s the backwards thinking Chrysler guys who think a 4 inch stroke turning 6500 is making power.

That’s why we don’t have the heads and intakes the GM guys have.

We are stuck in the 1980’s and I’m sure when I die it will be the same. Or worse.

So keep telling yourself that the advent of the 4 inch stroke crank made RPM obsolete. Because that’s just not true, unless you race a Chrysler.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

W5 heads had very poor quality control issues. Porosity was terrible.
I get how some people are so Mopar driven they wouldn’t consider running something else not made by Ma Mopar if there is such a thing these days.
Having run W5 stuff longer than I have anything else, because of the poor quality of the castings they are the last thing I would invest in at this point. Especially as nobody makes headers for them these days, the Mopar intake offerings were so so, etc, etc. not to mention buying them and getting them to a usuable state is expensive these days compared to 20 years ago. Very expensive
Looking at that level of power, I would buy Indy heads these days and not think twice.
Once you have had to throw them in the garbage after lots of money spent on them because of leaking badly( sprinklers) your perception is different than if you haven’t dealt with it.

Yeah, no one ever had a Chevy head leak.

No one ever had to retire a used up Chevy head.

Damn dude, you need a reality check. You give every reason for why something is what you think it is when the reality is it’s not.

Indy heads are leakers too. Yet you never ***** about them.

It’s insane really.

In fact, if I was building your engines I would have told you when the W5’s were used up it was time to move to W7’s.

You would have squealed about upgrading, the cost, the fact that you are a bracket racer and you don’t “need” anything but repeatability.

And I would have told you that a slant 6 far cheaper to build and maintain than anything else.

TBO starts at 750 runs minimum. Runs on pump gas. Oil changes every 250 runs.

And you would not want that because for YOU that’s too slow.

And that’s the issue. There are way too many guys like you in the Chrysler camp that don’t care.

I’m not picking on you or even criticizing so please don’t take it that way. I’m just pointing out that you are the norm in this.

You are the perfect example of why we get what we get. And you are by far in the majority. And I’m not even criticizing Chrysler guys for it as much as I’m saying stop bitching that we don’t have cheap parts and a variety of them.

Chrysler guys never bought the **** in the first place. I was pretty close to a big west coast DC dealer. I could drive down there in 42 minutes from my high school if I left at lunch time. Today it would be an hour and a half drive because the traffic blows.

I was pretty close to both of the guys here but one of them owned the dealership and we got very close.

Imagine my surprise when he told me about a new car he was building. It was a Daytona. He was going to run 9.50’s with it and slow it down for Super Gas.

I figured it would be a 440 based deal with a bunch of cool DC parts to showcase the stuff.

And he built a 383. I said WTF? Why not build it with cool parts to let everyone see what it can do. I figured he’d use the smaller engine to get the RPM up and whatever.

He said Tim, 80% of what I sell is just basic ****. It won’t matter if I built a Pro Stock car. Guys just won’t buy the parts that you use. They just sit.

That was 1984 because I bought the Barracuda a few months after that.

That’s just the truth of it. No one buys the parts so why would anyone make them? And we get what we get.

 

[9secRR]

i had a 436'' with a 4.125'' crank in the X block with W2 heads made peak power at 6900. i shifted it at 7200

 

[B3422w5]

Exactly.

That’s why when you walk through the pits you see a power glide in everything. It has dumbed down racing.

Chassis tuning on bracket cars is almost non existent, unless you consider shoe polish a tune up.

And you are shitting yourself if you think bracket guys aren’t turning 8k plus today.

If it’s a Chevy in a FAST car it’s turning 8k plus. Bet on it.

It’s the backwards thinking Chrysler guys who think a 4 inch stroke turning 6500 is making power.

That’s why we don’t have the heads and intakes the GM guys have.

We are stuck in the 1980’s and I’m sure when I die it will be the same. Or worse.

So keep telling yourself that the advent of the 4 inch stroke crank made RPM obsolete. Because that’s just not true, unless you race a Chrysler.

You don’t know 1/4 of what you think you do if you think seeing 8k in bracket cars is the norm.
Everybody is looking for low rpm, low maintenance stuff, and very lightweight cars to further the lack of maintenance needed.
Look at the big money bracket races around the country, 6.20’s or so in the 1/8 is kinda the sweet spot you find if you sit and watch pair after pair of no box cars go down the track. In fact by far the greatest majority of door cars in box and no box run 5.80 to 6.60. Many are 2400-2500 pounds, not many are much over 3000 pounds. You can do the math. Lots of 500-600 horse cars.
Guys that race a lot DO pay attention to chassis setup, and offset that by running big tires on relatively modest horsepower to make it even more consistent.
Again, repeatability and reliability are the most key things. Running stuff 8000 rpm isn’t needed to do that.

 

[Valman]

That’s just the truth of it. No one buys the parts so why would anyone make them? And we get what we get

Yep, that’s the rub of it right there.. Tons of Mopar guys in the past were too tight arse to buy anything that wasn’t a recycled factory part. GM guys can’t be like that, they need to be upgraded.

So, the good stuff was produced in low numbers, didn’t get the development it deserved & you pay a premium for it.

 

[B3422w5]

Exactly.

That’s why when you walk through the pits you see a power glide in everything. It has dumbed down racing.

Chassis tuning on bracket cars is almost non existent, unless you consider shoe polish a tune up.

And you are shitting yourself if you think bracket guys aren’t turning 8k plus today.

If it’s a Chevy in a FAST car it’s turning 8k plus. Bet on it.

It’s the backwards thinking Chrysler guys who think a 4 inch stroke turning 6500 is making power.

That’s why we don’t have the heads and intakes the GM guys have.

We are stuck in the 1980’s and I’m sure when I die it will be the same. Or worse.

So keep telling yourself that the advent of the 4 inch stroke crank made RPM obsolete. Because that’s just not true, unless you race a Chrysler.

Your idea of “ dumbing down” is what good racers call being smart. One shift equals more consistency. Availibility of parts regards glides, etc, etc.
When is the last time you went to a track..lol
You have zero clue what your talking about..lol

 

[Newbomb Turk]

You don’t know 1/4 of what you think you do if you think seeing 8k in bracket cars is the norm.
Everybody is looking for low rpm, low maintenance stuff, and very lightweight cars to further the lack of maintenance needed.
Look at the big money bracket races around the country, 6.20’s or so in the 1/8 is kinda the sweet spot you find if you sit and watch pair after pair of no box cars go down the track. In fact by far the greatest majority of door cars in box and no box run 5.80 to 6.60. Many are 2400-2500 pounds, not many are much over 3000 pounds. You can do the math. Lots of 500-600 horse cars.
Guys that race a lot DO pay attention to chassis setup, and offset that by running big tires on relatively modest horsepower to make it even more consistent.
Again, repeatability and reliability are the most key things. Running stuff 8000 rpm isn’t needed to do that.

Go to a fast bracket race and get back to me.

You are just shitting yourself. But don’t try that with me.

Here is something I’ve learned over the years.

People self segregate. At the races you hang with people who do what you do.

I don’t go to races to hang with guys that do what you do. So you just don’t see it.

Walk up to a door car running say 8.50’s and ask them if they shift at 6500. They don’t.

Every ******* engine builder I know is building bracket engines that 8k plus is where they make power, but they aren’t Chrysler ****.

Get a grip. There is a whole world out there that doesn’t like tractor engines.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Your idea of “ dumbing down” is what good racers call being smart. One shift equals more consistency. Availibility of parts regards glides, etc, etc.
When is the last time you went to a track..lol
You have zero clue what your talking about..lol

Yet a Pro Stock driver can shift FOUR TIMES a run in a much faster and harder to drive car and be plus or minus 100 rpm every single time.

You are dumbed down so far you can’t shift twice in 1320 feet and do it the same.

That’s a ******* joke. And it shows your limited driving and tuning skill.

That’s embarrassing.

In fact, I can tell you for a fact a Pro Stock car prints time slips far more consistent than a bracket racer ever does, without the use of electronics.

Just follow the weather.

And electronics. What a joke. All that did was make shitty drivers competitive. This is easily proven.

Take the electronics out and 70% of you guys would quit.

I grew up watching Modified Eliminator. When NHRA killed that Eliminator they dumbed down drag racing to preschool levels.

The shoe polish tune up won out.

And the sad thing is NHRA thought that the “Super” classes would feed Comp Eliminator and Comp would feed Pro Stock like Modified did.

Yeah, that backfired.

Why do you think No Prep and Drag and Drive are so popular? Because NHRA fucked up. They thought the “Super” classes would fill the Modified gap.

It didn’t.

Bet your *** the spectator count at a No Prep event is far higher than the spectator count at a big bracket race. There’s a reason for that.

No body wants to watch that boring assed ****. It blows.

Of course you’ll claim the spectator is too stupid to understand the nuances of bracket racing. They don’t get the different ways to get on and off the throttle stop, how to play the “game” of bracket racing.

The truth is they do get it. It just sucks ***.

You don’t know the half of what you think you know.

Go clown somewhere else.

 

[Danny Bellmore]

Go to a fast bracket race and get back to me.

You are just shitting yourself. But don’t try that with me.

Here is something I’ve learned over the years.

People self segregate. At the races you hang with people who do what you do.

I don’t go to races to hang with guys that do what you do. So you just don’t see it.

Walk up to a door car running say 8.50’s and ask them if they shift at 6500. They don’t.

Every ******* engine builder I know is building bracket engines that 8k plus is where they make power, but they aren’t Chrysler ****.

Get a grip. There is a whole world out there that doesn’t like tractor engines.

I often think about a nice ls in my Dart.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

I often think about a nice ls in my Dart.

Why not? You can get parts to make power at any RPM you want and it will live.

But I’d say skip all that and just build a BBC for it.

You’ll make more power for less money and have way more fun driving it.

If you want to make serious power there is no reason to use Chrysler power.

And it’s sucks saying that but it’s true.

 

[B3422w5]

Go to a fast bracket race and get back to me.

You are just shitting yourself. But don’t try that with me.

Here is something I’ve learned over the years.

People self segregate. At the races you hang with people who do what you do.

I don’t go to races to hang with guys that do what you do. So you just don’t see it.

Walk up to a door car running say 8.50’s and ask them if they shift at 6500. They don’t.

Every ******* engine builder I know is building bracket engines that 8k plus is where they make power, but they aren’t Chrysler ****.

Get a grip. There is a whole world out there that doesn’t like tractor engines.

“ fast bracket race”… lol what are you talking about.
My home track is home to the million dollar race winner, national bracket champs in two classes, and a very, very competitive bracket program that most years wins the Divisional.
I know a ton of the racers, and most of them aren’t turning 8k.
You aware 95% of the racing these days is done on the 1/8, right?
Most of the guys running 8.50’s that Bracket race( 5.50’s or so in the 1/8) are in roadsters or ultra light 2500 pound novas, etc, with Lexan, fiberglass, gutted interiors etc, etc. they don’t need to make huge power to run those kind of numbers.
You seem to be confusing some of the index classes with bracket cars.
Our track has had the million, and other elite bracket races( like a 250k coming up) that draws all the studs. You would be surprised how mild a lot of the motors are because they want to run a certain number, and have motors built to run that number as economically as possible. In many, many cases the motors are mild.

 

[Danny Bellmore]

Why not? You can get parts to make power at any RPM you want and it will live.

But I’d say skip all that and just build a BBC for it.

You’ll make more power for less money and have way more fun driving it.

If you want to make serious power there is no reason to use Chrysler power.

And it’s sucks saying that but it’s true.

Out of my group of friends I’m one of 2 small block Mopar guys. All the others are Chevy guys. Hell between 3 of them there are 5 race blocks available. I can’t find **** for a used mopar race block in New England.

 

[B3422w5]

Yet a Pro Stock driver can shift FOUR TIMES a run in a much faster and harder to drive car and be plus or minus 100 rpm every single time.

You are dumbed down so far you can’t shift twice in 1320 feet and do it the same.

That’s a ******* joke. And it shows your limited driving and tuning skill.

That’s embarrassing.

In fact, I can tell you for a fact a Pro Stock car prints time slips far more consistent than a bracket racer ever does, without the use of electronics.

Just follow the weather.

And electronics. What a joke. All that did was make shitty drivers competitive. This is easily proven.

Take the electronics out and 70% of you guys would quit.

I grew up watching Modified Eliminator. When NHRA killed that Eliminator they dumbed down drag racing to preschool levels.

The shoe polish tune up won out.

And the sad thing is NHRA thought that the “Super” classes would feed Comp Eliminator and Comp would feed Pro Stock like Modified did.

Yeah, that backfired.

Why do you think No Prep and Drag and Drive are so popular? Because NHRA fucked up. They thought the “Super” classes would fill the Modified gap.

It didn’t.

Bet your *** the spectator count at a No Prep event is far higher than the spectator count at a big bracket race. There’s a reason for that.

No body wants to watch that boring assed ****. It blows.

Of course you’ll claim the spectator is too stupid to understand the nuances of bracket racing. They don’t get the different ways to get on and off the throttle stop, how to play the “game” of bracket racing.

The truth is they do get it. It just sucks ***.

You don’t know the half of what you think you know.

Go clown somewhere else.

No, I know plenty, your the one beating your chest over stuff you know nothing about
I am competitive anywhere, despite footbraking, and for years now, being blind in my left eye, and racing a car I drive on the street, because I can.
I posted slips on here last year where I was 00x off the foot 4 laps in a row and the car moved around a bit over 1 number on those consecutive passes. That’s shifting a 3 speed manually without air or electric.
Get out of here with your BS

 

[Newbomb Turk]

No, I know plenty, your the one beating your chest over stuff you know nothing about
I am competitive anywhere, despite footbraking, and for years now, being blind in my left eye, and racing a car I drive on the street, because I can.
I posted slips on here last year where I was 00x off the foot 4 laps in a row and the car moved around a bit over 1 number on those consecutive passes. That’s shifting a 3 speed manually without air or electric.
Get out of here with your BS

I’ll post this just for you to show what a horses *** you are. You can’t even see this dude he’s so far out in front of you.

Now go sit down and be quite you poser.

He posted this 55 minutes ago. Read it close. You are a fool.

Could you be more wrong? Probably, but you are DEAD a WRONG about this.

Stay in your lane. You don’t know Jack **** about making power. You can’t even do it. You just buy it and then talk like you know something.

EDIT: if you want to see who the poser is go to Facebook and look up this post. Then read the comments of guys who actually build engines and read what they say.

I’m sick and tired of Chrysler guys acting like they are getting screwed by the aftermarket but they really need to look in the mirror.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Out of my group of friends I’m one of 2 small block Mopar guys. All the others are Chevy guys. Hell between 3 of them there are 5 race blocks available. I can’t find **** for a used mopar race block in New England.

Just reading this thread should show you who the problem is.

It’s not the aftermarket. It’s the end users who are stuck in the 1980’s but think they are King **** because they bracket race.

******* clowns.

 

[Danny Bellmore]

Just reading this thread should show you who the problem is.

It’s not the aftermarket. It’s the end users who are stuck in the 1980’s but think they are King **** because they bracket race.

******* clowns.

I come here to learn. It seems most threads have some great information but they ALL go off the rails.

 

[B3422w5]

I’ll post this just for you to show what a horses *** you are. You can’t even see this dude he’s so far out in front of you.

Now go sit down and be quite you poser.

View attachment 1716402077

He posted this 55 minutes ago. Read it close. You are a fool.

Could you be more wrong? Probably, but you are DEAD a WRONG about this.

Stay in your lane. You don’t know Jack **** about making power. You can’t even do it. You just buy it and hen talk like you know something.

99% of smart guys buy power, they don’t make it themselves.
The reason they can afford to buy it is because they have the money to do so. They have the money to do so is because they have some other skill they make a good living at which allows them to pay for it.
There are guys who do the machine work, port heads and race the stuff they do all that stuff to. But they are like way, way, way in the minority.
We might have 220 or so cars on a typical bracket weekend at US131.
Divided into juniors( basically zero of those cars have motors built by the parents involved, and out of the other 170 or so cars there, I would bet not 10 of them were machined and assembled by the drivers/ owners.
The other 160 are guys like me, they have careers, family, etc and don’t have any interest in doing machining, assembly work, etc. they leave it to experts.
Again, you haven’t a clue, I have raced for coming up on 50 years( soon to call it quits) I have seen the old the new and everything in between.
And pro stock cars are so technically advanced and scienced out, and driven by the elite of the elite, along with the other pro classes, they don’t fit in with our bracket discussion.
And BTW, lots of those guys have bracket cars, guys like Jeggie who campaigns( among other cars) a Nova wagon that runs usually 6.0’s in 1/8. And I have watched him time and again be put on the trailer by bracket guys you have never heard of. Including losing first round, buying back, and being runner up again.

 

[B3422w5]

Just reading this thread should show you who the problem is.

It’s not the aftermarket. It’s the end users who are stuck in the 1980’s but think they are King **** because they bracket race.

******* clowns.

Nobody thinks they are king **** bracket racing. I sure don’t.
This started out about you saying bracket cars run 8000 rpm all the time and us old Mopar guys don’t.
Quit moving the goalposts, most guys don’t run 8k rpm

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Nobody thinks they are king **** bracket racing. I sure don’t.
This started out about you saying bracket cars run 8000 rpm all the time and us old Mopar guys don’t.
Quit moving the goalposts, most guys don’t run 8k rpm

Did you see the post Chad Spierer made?

He says exactly what I’m saying.

Damn dude.

 

[B3422w5]

RPM
Most bracket style engines will see 7500 RPM or less.
Most max effort engines will see 8000 RPM or more.

Piston Speed
Most bracket style engines operate in the 5000 fpm
Most max effort engines operate in the 6000 fpm.

To allow max effort engines to live at those levels, the use of titanium valves, light weight billet crankshafts and assemblies, custom valve trains are required, (60MM cams

) ect.

I would also say if the build uses off the shelf pistons and standard rings, roller rockers and non custom manifolds, it's no way close to a max effort engine.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

 

[Newbomb Turk]

RPM
Most bracket style engines will see 7500 RPM or less.
Most max effort engines will see 8000 RPM or more.

Piston Speed
Most bracket style engines operate in the 5000 fpm
Most max effort engines operate in the 6000 fpm.

To allow max effort engines to live at those levels, the use of titanium valves, light weight billet crankshafts and assemblies, custom valve trains are required, (60MM cams

) ect.

I would also say if the build uses off the shelf pistons and standard rings, roller rockers and non custom manifolds, it's no way close to a max effort engine.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

Yep. I’m not surprised you’d find a guy who builds stuff like you use.

Surely if you want to make power at 8k plus you aren’t using Harlan Sharp rockers and 5/64 rings. That’s a given.

Unless you are a Chrysler guy.

The rest of the racing world is using Jesel or T&D or Manton type rockers.

They use 1/2 inch or bigger pushrods.

They use .7 mm rings.

And guess what? The TBO is far FAR better than it’s ever been.

Ti valves are money savers. That’s the fact. If your valve is over 5.150 long with a 2.100 head diameter it should be Ti. It saves money over the long run.

This is the stepping over a donut to grab dog **** analogy.

The rest of the racing world has moved on and as I have been pointing out and Chad Spierer and most of the guys who commented on his post that’s just the fact.

Chrysler guys are sucking hind tit.

I get it you think RPM is bad. Then dont do it. Run that street/tractor ****.

Just stay out of threads that require a working knowledge of induction systems until you have at least several hundred hours behind a grinder and the requisite flow bench and dyno time to test your work.

You just don’t have a clue. And you show it with every post.

 

[B3422w5]

Yep. I’m not surprised you’d find a guy who builds stuff like you use.

Surely if you want to make power at 8k plus you aren’t using Harlan Sharp rockers and 5/64 rings. That’s a given.

Unless you are a Chrysler guy.

The rest of the racing world is using Jesel or T&D or Manton type rockers.

They use 1/2 inch or bigger pushrods.

They use .7 mm rings.

And guess what? The TBO is far FAR better than it’s ever been.

Ti valves are money savers. That’s the fact. If your valve is over 5.150 long with a 2.100 head diameter it should be Ti. It saves money over the long run.

This is the stepping over a donut to grab dog **** analogy.

The rest of the racing world has moved on and as I have been pointing out and Chad Spierer and most of the guys who commented on his post that’s just the fact.

Chrysler guys are sucking hind tit.

I get it you think RPM is bad. Then dont do it. Run that street/tractor ****.

Just stay out of threads that require a working knowledge of induction systems until you have at least several hundred hours behind a grinder and the requisite flow bench and dyno time to test your work.

You just don’t have a clue. And you show it with every post.

My W5 motor 20 years ago had 043 ring pack, Jesel rockers, and 3/8 intake and 7/16 exhaust pushrods, Ti retainers, etc. it ran 74-7500 every pass. It was all 1/4 back then too.
I don’t think rpm is bad, I think rpm bracket racing like I do, isn’t needed, it’s overkill. It’s also less costly. It’s the prevelant way it’s being done. Guy that won the million( Donnie Hagar, a friend of mine) runs 6.30’s in a 2600 pound Vega with a super low budget 383 in it, he is also a World champion.
I am gonna guess you run your mouth way more than you make laps at the track.
I say that because unlike you must be, I have a budget and am trying to retire. It’s easy to spend other’s money, call them names and assume they don’t know all these little “ tricks” you seem to think you exclusively are aware of. What a dunce.
Would love to go to a roller cam, etc, etc, etc. but more cage, a license, yada, yada. None of it will turn on more win lights, just more money, and I have already done all that stuff. I have tons of fun doing what I do.
You can wack your weenie reading magazine articles if you want, I like racing