AJ's Opinion; what size SBM do I need

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easy...... eeeeaaaaassssyy........

It's stupid. I get sick of seeing the same people beat down their own frakkin brand. They just need to get out of the hobby and off this damned forum if that's how they feel. Easy my ***.
 
I’ve seen “new technology” and I’m less than impressed. That includes the complicated Coyote Ford pile of ****, the weak block of the LS and the highly inefficient hemi head.

I’ve said it before but it bears repeating. I’m a life long N/A guy. None of the above is spectacular without some power adder. I’m following a turbo build here on FABO. Ritter block (far FAR a better than any of the OE blocks above) and I forget the heads. Let’s see what that does.

Also, airflow isn’t the end all of making power.

I was sayin your a grump old fart... :lol:

And build what you got. Like most of the non 318 haters, we all have 318s, 340s and 360s. I know I want different things from each so they are build different.

Someone just likes standing on :soapbox: hating on small cubes.

****, I want to build a destroked 340 for T/A rules just for ***** and giggles to see how that runs in my Duster...
 
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There no replacement for displacement, it costs the same to build a 360. You can bla bla bla all you want but a 360 core is where I would start.

True but people only look at static displacement not the more important and more accurate dynamic displacement aka a running engine. Eg. a 440 making peak power at 5500 rpm with say 90% VE displaces 1088640 cubic inches per minute or as we normally call it 630 cfm and a 318 would displace that much air at 7610 rpm. Rpm is basically adding more displacement. A 220 cid engine would need two revolutions to do the same job as a 440 would do in one revolution per period of time like a minute aka "rpm".
 
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What size small block do I need?
The biggest size they come in
Well, an acquaintance of mine had a 502 that he built, but he went overboard on lightening the the internal components, and it didnt last long. Before that, he had a 468 that ran really well, high 9s in a street driven/show quality demon, cover car on MoparMuscle.
Edit: sorry, i forgot. YES, small block mopars.
 
Yep. DCR is at the bottom of my list for things to consider. It’s a useless number. I will be checking cranking compression numbers so I can develop a data base and see if any patterns develop.
Sing it brother!

That depends. Cam timing has as much or more effect on RPM than air flow does. When I switched from W2 to W5 heads, I kept the shift RPM the same but with the W5 heads I used 14 degrees LESS duration on the intake side and 18 degrees LESS duration on the exhaust side.

Still made power at the same RPM. It made more HP but the RPM a curve was the same.
And once again, it is shown, use the best available head you can afford.
 
To me this “discussion” is always about money. Unless they’re trying to prove a point, no one in their right mind would actually choose a 318 for a performance build. I know it, you know it; dollar for dollar it’s a losing proposition when compared to a 360.

Can a 318 perform? Sure. How much money ya got? But there’s that money thing again - do you dump $7-8K into a small small block where realistically the most power you could get out of it with “regular” parts would be around 450hp? No, you don’t. Especially not when you can make that with a stock short block 360 with good heads and an Air Gap.

I think what happens is that guys find these sort of unmolested cars and 90% of them came equipped with a 2bbl. They drive them around for a bit and after falling asleep behind the wheel they start thinking about more power.

But how to do it on the cheap? It’s hard because like AJ points out in a long winded way, there are too many compromises or extra things that are needed to make it work well.

It’s all about money. You couldn’t pay me to build a 318, nit worth it.
 
The Ferd 302 guyz are noth'n like us Mopar guyz. They love their fox body 5.0's. So they build them. And they go fast. Some go really fast. Some go super doper fast. 5.0's work GREAT for the Ferd guyz, but 5.2 isn't nearly enough for the Mopar guyz. I guess an old push rod 302 is just superior than the old push rod 318. Ford in for the Win in round one ! Next round coming up ...... 5.9 vs 5.8 LOL
 
I was sayin your a grump old fart... :lol:

And build what you got. Like most of the non 318 haters, we all have 318s, 340s and 360s. I know I want different things from each so they are build different.

Someone just likes standing on :soapbox: hating on small cubes.

****, I want to build a destroked 340 for T/A rules just for ***** and giggles to see how that runs in my Duster...


LOL...I didn’t deny that. I was grumpy when I was 12. My wife says it’s getting worse.
 
In 5.0 form, it is.
'92 5.2 had more HP/TQ than the '92 5.0. Weight, gearing all equal, the 5.2 wins.

Mopar guy throws the 5.2 in the sea. Ford guy builds the 5.0 and goes 11's on the street. Ford guy wins round 2 (see round 1 in post 64)
 
I hate giving ppl the red x and out of respect to you im not going to but j disagree with you. The whole bigger is better thing is gone the replacement for displacement is airflow!! Look at all these 5.3 ls engines making 1400 hp with turbos and stock bottom ends! The 5.3 is only 9 CI bigger than a 318 and they are making crazy numbers with them simply with boost! The same can be done with 318s! Granted you can do the same to the bigger ci engines and get similar results but my point is the small engines can get there too. Its more about tuning and efficiency than the biggest engines you can stuff in your car. @318willrun has taught us all that.
And making 1800 with a 6.0, displacement matters.
 
'92 5.2 had more HP/TQ than the '92 5.0. Weight, gearing all equal, the 5.2 wins.

Mopar guy throws the 5.2 in the sea. Ford guy builds the 5.0 and goes 11's on the street. Ford guy wins round 2 (see round 1 in post 64)
I'm not unfamiliar with small displacement engines, I built the 30 over 289 for my 64 Fairlane, it made 455hp and 445 ftlbs of torque NA. Now I could have bought a 362 from Ford that makes 500hp for less money than I have in the 289 but in would not have been a 289. So I understand a loyalty to one particular engine, the car was a 289 so I built the same, but if I was just building a mild to stock daily driver I'd build a 360.
 
The Ferd 302 guyz are noth'n like us Mopar guyz. They love their fox body 5.0's. So they build them. And they go fast. Some go really fast. Some go super doper fast. 5.0's work GREAT for the Ferd guyz, but 5.2 isn't nearly enough for the Mopar guyz. I guess an old push rod 302 is just superior than the old push rod 318. Ford in for the Win in round one ! Next round coming up ...... 5.9 vs 5.8 LOL

If it's a 5.8 Cleveland with 4V heads, God help the 5.9. lol
 
'92 5.2 had more HP/TQ than the '92 5.0. Weight, gearing all equal, the 5.2 wins.

Mopar guy throws the 5.2 in the sea. Ford guy builds the 5.0 and goes 11's on the street. Ford guy wins round 2 (see round 1 in post 64)
Does the 5.0 have a big brother they can build, like the 360 is to the 318?

Or are they forced to "make due" ?
 
5.8 351 cubes
i had one of those in a bronco

at one point it backfired as i was trying to start it and i stared at it for 30 seconds trying to decide if i should put it out, or let it burn down

still not sure if i made the right call

20190621_124227-jpg.jpg




if that 351 is a fair sampling, then it makes sense they build the 302

but my 360, even in junkyard trim, would run circles around that boat anchor
 
The 351 Cleveland was a different beast when tricked out.
 
First, i am in no way experienced as a small block guy, but im gonna offer an opinion anyway.
Comparing a 318 with a 327 chevy is instructive in my opinion, and kinda explains why 318s arent highly valued in the mopar community.
Anybody remember the 210hp 2bbl 327? Nope, because it was a completely pedestrian toaster motor, a to b and back again. Two barrel 318 had a little more power ( factory rated, anyway).
Now, how about the 350 hp hydraulic 327, or the corvette 365/375 horse. Remember them? Just like the 318...... uh, wait.....
327s, and 302s for that matter were available in high output,hi performance versions. 327s could be gotten with forged crank, rods, hi comp forged pistons, the best small block heads chevy had to offer, good aluminum intakes, four barrel holleys, and big cams. The 318.....not so much. Most of that stuff mentioned for 327s WAS available from mopar, its called a 340!
The problem with the 318 is, all that stuff has to be found and purchased, at mopar parts dollar rates, it doesnt come there to start with. Heck, i dont think you can even buy 9 1/2 forged pistons for it, other than custom. Who would do that?
All of the above stuff, ten times as much selection for the ford, twenty times as much for the chevy, is available for about 2/3 the price of mopar stuff, probably at the corner drugstore. Easy and cheap to build a chevy or ford. If you want to make power for the money invested, it makes more sense to begin with a bigger motor. I DO understand the desire to work with what you have, if you have a 318, and i wouldnt try to discourage, but it wouldnt be fair not to point out that there are better alternatives.
 
Does the 5.0 have a big brother they can build, like the 360 is to the 318?


Or are they forced to "make due" ?
347 stroker kits for the lowdeck 302 are common, 365 short blocks are available in the aftermarket. 347 is the most practical in the 302 deck height. So, because of the much higher deck of the 318, stroker kits for 318s are 50 cu in bigger.
The step-up from 302 is a taller deck 351 windsor (sound like 318-360?). Stroker 351 is typically 408. (Ring a bell?)
But typical edelbrock head for sbm is 170 cc, small block ford has 225 cnc heads available everywhere, a potential 100 hp increase over the sbm head, just sign the credit card receipt. And a fox mustang stripped down can be 500 lbs lighter than a duster. In the same condition.
 
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'92 5.2 had more HP/TQ than the '92 5.0. Weight, gearing all equal, the 5.2 wins.

Mopar guy throws the 5.2 in the sea. Ford guy builds the 5.0 and goes 11's on the street. Ford guy wins round 2 (see round 1 in post 64)
I dont mean to be argumentative, but please tell me about the under 3200 lb mopar you could get a 318 in, in 1992?
 
On another note… transmissions…..
Do the all shift at the exact same point?
Just a 904 vs 727, year vs year bracket of discussion please.
I wanna employ the K.I.S.S method here thanks.
 
On another note… transmissions…..
Do the all shift at the exact same point?
Just a 904 vs 727, year vs year bracket of discussion please.
I wanna employ the K.I.S.S method here thanks.

you need to first address parasitic loss between the 904 and the 727
 
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