Alignment issues yet again

Discussion in 'Suspension, Steering and Chassis' started by skep419, Sep 26, 2018.

  1. skep419

    skep419 It's only money, you can always make more

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    Can’t get it remotely even. Here is how it sits with both upper controls arms all the way out in the slots.

    (1969 Dart. Big ball joint factory control arms with moog offset bushings)

    67337684-DA10-4E0C-90D3-7D09BFF3FC97.jpeg
     
  2. BigBlockMopar

    BigBlockMopar BigBlockMember

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    Both UCA's all the way out on all adjusters? Why would you want to do that?
    Rotate the rear bolts on both UCAs all the way in. This how you should start out and adjust from there.
     
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    • skep419

      skep419 It's only money, you can always make more

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      basically the camber is roughly -1.5-2 on the right side when you add caster.
      I did it to show the difference side to side.
       
    • BigBlockMopar

      BigBlockMopar BigBlockMember

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      Ok, got it.
      There indeed seems to be something fairly off.
      LCA bushings in good shape?
      Strut rod bushings?
       
    • brian6pac

      brian6pac Well-Known Member

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      leave the right side alone or maybe go in a little on the rear but your camber will go neg and it's good where it is the caster will go pos and that will help, but the left side needs to go neg on both so see if you can get 0 camber and - 1.0 caster on the left and - .5 to -1.0 caster on the right
       
    • AJ/FormS

      AJ/FormS 367 FormS clone 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09-.78od 3.55s

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      That could be nothing more than one short strut-rod bushing.
      But what's with that toe setting? What means 1.26 inch and 1.32 inch toe?
      Did you CORRECTLY install those problem solvers? When correct, the Upper BJ will be drawn rearwards . So the rear bushing hole will be offset towards the fender, and the front hole will be offset toward the apron.
      Reset the camber to ZERO, with the wheels straight ahead;and you should see over 3.5degrees positive caster. If you don't, the bushings are likely in backwards or the rideheight is wonky!
      From there you sacrifice caster to get camber.
      My 68 Barracuda got close to 5 degrees caster at zero camber. But I had to give up about a degree and change to get .7* camber
      When she is set to zero camber,in straight ahead,then you can fix the caster spread, usually be pulling the LCA ahead, with the strutrod. But if the thrust angle is also wonky, then sometimes I had to reposition the K-member. And if it still won't come in, then maybe the car got banged up and not straightened out properly; and it will have to go to the frame machine. Check the wheelbases, both sides, at zero camber and max caster for that zero camber.But try to equalize the casters a bit.
       
      Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
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      • Frnknsteen

        Frnknsteen FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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        AJ read my mind,... I was also wondering what was going on with that toe. Mine is set to .14 degrees per side of toe-in.

        Agree with this too. I asked them to put me between -.75 and -1 degree of Camber and as much Caster as they could get. Ended up with about -.89 camber on each side and +4.9 Caster. Probably more of both than needed, but it drives well.

        I've heard of other installing those offset bushings wrong, especially because the directions that come in the box tell you to install them wrong. AJ is right. Offset hole on front of UCA goes toward engine (pushing UCA out towards wheel), and offset hole goes out towards wheel on back of UCA (causing UCA to be pushed towards motor). This rocks the UCA backwards and increases Caster.

        Here are my final settings:

        Final Alignment settings.jpg
         
      • mbaird

        mbaird mbaird FABO Gold Member

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        The direction that come with the Moog Problem Solver direct the installer to put them in the same way front and back...IIRC
        Do you guys ignore the instructions ?
         
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        • BigBlockMopar

          BigBlockMopar BigBlockMember

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          The MOOG offset bushings are actually used 'wrong', as they were invented to correct out-of-range or collision damaged cars with tweaked frames.
          The manual is still correct if they are used for their intended purpose, but 'no-one' really does that.

          It was quickly found that if one simply reverses the rear most bushings during install, the kit acts as a caster-improvement kit, which is exactly what modern-day tires need.
           
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          • 72bluNblu

            72bluNblu FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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            Yes, you ignore the supplied instructions.

            This is how they should be installed for maximum caster
            moog-k7103-bushings-jpg-jpg.jpg
             
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            • AJ/FormS

              AJ/FormS 367 FormS clone 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09-.78od 3.55s

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              Aha! the plot thickens,lol
               
            • AJ/FormS

              AJ/FormS 367 FormS clone 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09-.78od 3.55s

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              That's a lot of caster left over for the amount of camber you got; looks sweet
               
            • skep419

              skep419 It's only money, you can always make more

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              going to pull the right side upper control arm tonight and check the bushings.
               
            • 72bluNblu

              72bluNblu FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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              Something isn't right, that's for sure.

              What does the rest of your suspension look like? New bushings in the LCA's? Stock strut rods with new bushings? Rubber or poly bushings for the strut rods and LCA's?
               
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              • TrailBeast

                TrailBeast Slightly Twisted Member

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                Totally agree on how important to alignment the strut rod bushings and LCA bushings are.
                If they move alignment is impossible to get in range, and even if it does get in range it'll change as soon as you leave the alignment bay.
                 
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                • 694spd

                  694spd Well-Known Member

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                  You mention "ride height" and that it can affect the caster setting?
                  I need to learn more about this, as I'm still playing with the T-bar adjusters trying to get a correct ride height before I take my Dart in for an alignment. I am too looking for a good positive caster reading.
                   
                • AJ/FormS

                  AJ/FormS 367 FormS clone 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09-.78od 3.55s

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                  HYUP, Since caster is an imaginary line thru the upper and lower BJs, if the rear of the car is higher than the front, it will reduce the caster reading and vice versa. This does not affect the alignment otherwise, nor affect the tires. And the change is quite small.
                  But adjusting the T-bars to change the front ride height, will make big changes to both camber and toe; so you want to show up at the alignment shop at the final ride height. If you change it later, after the alignment, you will be sure to introduce changes that might affect tread-life and steering wander.
                  And one other thing, the ride heights need to be the same on both sides of the car. If you have one saggy spring in the back, you will have to preload one T-bar in compensation. So now the car sets level from side to side, but the handling is wonky.
                  And one more thing, unless you have big T-bars or only weigh a hundred pounds,lol, you probably want to get the alignment done with your weight in your seat, so bring sandbags.
                  And one more thing, lol, if on the driver's side, you have a saggy rear spring,or a saggy T-bar , and you don't use the sandbags, then you are gonna be one unhappy customer.
                  And one more thing, don't use the wheel openings to measure level; they may not even have been in the right place when the car left the factory.
                  What I do is jack the diff up under the banjo to just get the tires up off the floor, but I put a spider-pin on the jack, longitudinally,centered there, so the rear of the car can pivot on it. Then I go level the front at the core support, with the jack-screws. Then I fine tune by measuring from the K-bolts to the floor. I cut a stick to fit the short side and swap it back and forth.Before giving it the stamp of approval, you will have to relax the suspension by rolling the car back and forth one last time.
                  After the front is level, I drop the rear back onto the floor. Then I measure from the floor to the rear spring hanger upper mount. I don't get anal about identical If the difference is within .25inch or maybe a half even,call it done.That's what I do; with my weight in the drivers seat, and my battery in the trunk... on the passenger side.
                  The T-bar adjusters should have been removed,wire-brushed, and liberally anti-seized, then you can adjust them with the weight of the car on them, otherwise ..... IDK.
                  Now you can measure from your wheel openings, and compare. Yeah, good luck with that,lol.
                   
                  Last edited: Sep 27, 2018
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                  • skep419

                    skep419 It's only money, you can always make more

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                    Looks correct to me. Lower control arm bushings were replaced a few years ago. Lower ball joints and strut rod bushings were probably replaced 10 years ago.

                    1816563F-AEC4-4E94-883B-364D4250AADC.jpeg E5FC7C64-34F3-4B06-A657-831547DCBC03.jpeg
                     
                  • skep419

                    skep419 It's only money, you can always make more

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                  • 72bluNblu

                    72bluNblu FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                  • AJ/FormS

                    AJ/FormS 367 FormS clone 3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09-.78od 3.55s

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                    they're both in backwards, OOps , wrong side of the car,lol
                    They are correct for the passenger side.
                     
                    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
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                    • skep419

                      skep419 It's only money, you can always make more

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                      42376D77-2EF4-46D6-87AF-993480B7C0E6.jpeg
                      The picture didn’t load. This is the passenger side
                       
                    • 72bluNblu

                      72bluNblu FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                      That big clean spot around the strut rod bushing indicates that bushing is moving all over the place. I’d be changing the strut rod bushings at the least.
                       
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                      • Frnknsteen

                        Frnknsteen FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                        Those passenger side UCA bushings look correct. Did you check the driver side and see if it is correct too? Might explain why you are seeing so much difference from driver side to passenger side.
                         
                      • skep419

                        skep419 It's only money, you can always make more

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                        the drivers side I can work with. the passenger side is the problem child. I will check it out after I take everything apart to replace the strut rod bushings.

                        I'm going to replace the cam bolt adjusters also. what bushings and bolts are the good ones?
                        k7040
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