Aluminum Fuel Tank Project / EFI Fuel Cooling

["Dart67"]

Now that I have my cooling system problems fixed, another cooling issue has come up.

This time with the fuel temperatures.

After driving the car for 25 - 30 miles it will act like the fuel was shut off and die.

It will restart and run for another 4 -5 miles after setting for a few minutes.

The fuel in the tank is getting so hot that you can not touch the tank.

The heat is being caused by a number of things. The fuel rails are picking up heat from the engine bay. I believe the Areomotive A1000 fuel pump is cavitate due to its mounting location and creating additional heat.

The pump location can be seen in a photo in this thread: "Home-Brewed".

The return line was also mounted to close to right side muffler and tailpipe.

I am in the process of a fuel system cooling project now.

I had purchased this cooler a few years ago for this system. Then things got put on hold.
I now have the cooler mounted in the AN-6 return line.

I am waiting on a 10 foot length on AN-6 line and fittings to finish the plumbing to the new tank that I am making.

I also am making progress on the aluminum "stealth" tank.

I am making my own version of the A Body tank at this site: http://hotrodcitygarage.com/mopartanks.html
I do not have $425.00 plus the cost of the stealth upgrades and shipping to spend on a new tank. But I have the time.
So I have decided to build my own from scrape I have around the shop and three 29"x42"x.080 6160 aluminum from the local scrap yard at $1.00 / lb..
So far I have less then $60.00 invested in parts and materials.
I am going to post progress photos as I go.
I am also learning to TIG weld aluminum as I go. I had a couple of bumps to start out. Once I learned that you can not have the aluminum too clean before starting to weld, I have been doing pretty good.
Here is a photo of most of the parts that I have cut out or made prior to welding/assembly.

So far the hardest part to make were the filler neck flange and the access port flange and lid. These parts were made by welding scrap 1/4" aluminum angle together to get the sizes needed. Then cutting them to size with a jig saw and metal lathe.
The ring has 32 holes drilled and tapped for 6x32 button head stainless steel screws.

To get the correct diameter for the spare tire well, I cheated a little. I have a complete spare tire well left from an old project that got sold.

I have gotten the ends welded on to the body of the tank today and the pump and filter mocked up.

I will post more as I go along.

Herb

 

[67Dart273]

Holy gorgeous, Batman!!! That thing is NICE

Is it possible that you just simply have way too much pump? How much HP does it make and could you maybe use a smaller pump?

 

[66plyValiant]

you have an interesting way of solving it, but what happens if a rock bonces up and goes through that cooler that has (probably return fuel) at pressures of about 15-20 psi?

a fire is bound to happen

they run new EFI cars everyday without fuel coolers, there must be an issue with your setup

 

[BillGrissom]

To get a feel for whether the heat comes from the pump or the exhaust & hot engine bay, calculate the electrical power into the pump: P = I x dV. Ex. if it is drawing 10 A, P = (10 A) * (12 V) = 120 W. That energy is going into the fuel. I expect your pump draws ~2 A steady-state. It is a bit hard to measure such currents. Easiest is a clamp-on DC current probe. I just bought some for work at $440 ea. For home, I bought an earlier F.W. Bell one for $15 on ebay. See why I like ebay?

 

["Dart67"]

Holy gorgeous, Batman!!! That thing is NICE

Is it possible that you just simply have way too much pump? How much HP does it make and could you maybe use a smaller pump?

I have never had the engine dyno'ed.

Chenoweth Speed and Machine in Morton, Il. did the machine and parts selection, I did the assembly.

Their desktop dyno at the time predicted between 680hp and 700hp depending on the intake/fuel system on 93 octane.

At the time I did all of the building on the car the A1000 pump was my only choice.
Aeromotive now has a pump rated for 750hp max. If it had been available then, that is what I would have gone with.
I do not want to spend another $350.00 for a pump when I have one.

The A1000 pumpis controlled by an Aeromotive Fuel Pump Speed Controler.
The pump runs at reduced speed until around 3000 RPM then goes full speed after that. There is no reduction in fuel pressure, only the flow.
This is to keep heat build up to a minimum.

Herb

 

["Dart67"]

you have an interesting way of solving it, but what happens if a rock bonces up and goes through that cooler that has (probably return fuel) at pressures of about 15-20 psi?

a fire is bound to happen

they run new EFI cars everyday without fuel coolers, there must be an issue with your setup

At this point in time, I am not to worried about damage to the cooler.

I have a shield in the plans.

IF, when I get this project completed the fuel temps have been lowered, I will remove the cooler and see if they stay cool. If they do, I will leave the cooler off.

Herb

 

["Dart67"]

To get a feel for whether the heat comes from the pump or the exhaust & hot engine bay, calculate the electrical power into the pump: P = I x dV. Ex. if it is drawing 10 A, P = (10 A) * (12 V) = 120 W. That energy is going into the fuel. I expect your pump draws ~2 A steady-state. It is a bit hard to measure such currents. Easiest is a clamp-on DC current probe. I just bought some for work at $440 ea. For home, I bought an earlier F.W. Bell one for $15 on ebay. See why I like ebay?

Bill,

I have emailed Aeromotive tech support asking what the max amp draw for the pump is. Still no reply. I guess I will try to call them on Monday.

You would think they would publish that info, but I have been unable to find it.

I think some of my problems are related to the alternator/charging circuit as well.

My battery was on its way out and not taking/holding a charge to well. This could also cause the pump to run warmer then normal, considering that when going down the road there are 2 11" spal electric fans and a 11" derale fan on the trans cooler.

I have a 140 amp power master alternator. I had it tested at a good shop locally and it is working the way it should.

I have replaced the old battery with a Optima Yellow Top.

With the fuel system torn apart I have not had a chance to see how it works.

I woke up from a dead sleep last night and realized that the only ground on the alternator is thru the top mounting bolt and the tension turn buckle.
This could be a high resistant ground cause low output to the battery.

The battery is mounted in the trunk with fine strand 1/0 welding cable to it.
I have stranded 6 gauge copper from the battery to a stud on the engine just below the alternator.

I am going to run a heavy braided or another 6 gauge jumper from the alternator case to that stud.


Herb

 

[67Dart273]

[QUOTE="Dart67";1970096626]I woke up from a dead sleep last night and realized that the only ground on the alternator is thru the top mounting bolt and the tension turn buckle.
This could be a high resistant ground cause low output to the battery.

The battery is mounted in the trunk with fine strand 1/0 welding cable to it.
I have stranded 6 gauge copper from the battery to a stud on the engine just below the alternator.

I am going to run a heavy braided or another 6 gauge jumper from the alternator case to that stud.
Herb
Herb[/QUOTE]

Can you detail the heavy wiring again? This does not make sense to me.

Where is the battery grounded, IE did you run 1/0 from battery neg to the engine, or is the battery grounded to the body in the trunk?

It obviously "has been working" otherwise it would not crank well That is, the alternator ground could not be a problem and the starter still work well.

 

["Dart67"]

Can you detail the heavy wiring again? This does not make sense to me.

Where is the battery grounded, IE did you run 1/0 from battery neg to the engine, or is the battery grounded to the body in the trunk?

It obviously "has been working" otherwise it would not crank well That is, the alternator ground could not be a problem and the starter still work well.

The alternator is a one wire.

The battery is in the rear passenger side of the trunk.

The 1/0 goes from the Bat terminal of the alternator to the Positive of the battery.

It is a little on the large side. Bigger is Better, right...
It is better to have the feed wire too large and not too small.
It is what I had on hand at the time I built the car.

The starter has it's own 1/0 supply line to the starter relay.

The Negative side of the battery goes to a 3/8"x2"x4" copper buss bar next to the battery.

This buss bar feeds two stranded and insulated 6 gauge cooper wires.

One of the 6 gauge feeds goes to another copper buss bar in the passenger side kick panel. All of the grounds from the dash goto this buss. Each under it's own machine screw.

The other 6 gauge wire goes to a 3/8" stud mounted in one of the fuel pump block off plate holes for the engine block ground.

This is where I plan on running the ground strap from the alternator. It can't hurt.

The fuel pump is wired with 10 gauge stranded wire, both the + and -.

The pump ground goes to the buss next to the battery.

ALL of the grounds in the car go to one of the two copper buss bars, NOT to the body.

This was done to help eliminate any "noise" interference to the F.A.S.T. XFI.

The system "was" working ok until I added the load of the two spal fans.

Until I got the cooling system working, I really could not drive the car to iron out other possible problems)

The battery tested marginal on my load tester and also at the parts store.
It was almost 5 years old.

Herb

 

[67Dart273]

Do I understand that the main block ground is hooked to a fuel pump bolt? So I'm guessing you have a 1/0, etc from there to the chassis for engine starting? I doubt that alternator grounding is the issue.

That's easy to prove. Get some scrap wire, anything, no16 or even larger, long enough to reach from the battery to the alternator. Make up a battery clip on the scrap wire and hook that to your rear ground. Run the wire up front, hook one probe of your voltmeter to the scrap wire, and the other probe to the alternator case / ground with the meter on low volts.

Check the reading first with engine running to simulate "medium cruise" with battery up and normal, then check again with whatever you can load it--headlights, heater, etc.

You are hoping for a really low reading, less than .3V would be good.

What if anything are you doing for a batt. disconnect?

 

["Dart67"]

Do I understand that the main block ground is hooked to a fuel pump bolt?

The ground is connected to a 3/8" stud in one of the factory fuel pump mounting holes on the block. It is a 440 block.

So I'm guessing you have a 1/0, etc from there to the chassis for engine starting?

No, that stud has a 6 gauge stranded copper cable to a common copper ground 3/8"x2"x4" buss bar. The Negative battery cable is also connected to this buss.

I doubt that alternator grounding is the issue.

I do not think it is either, I am just going to take an extra step and ground it's case to the block to be safe.

What if anything are you doing for a batt. disconnect?

I have a disconnect at the battery that kills ALL power to the car when it is pushed in.

Herb

 

["Dart67"]

I did not get much done today.

I just quit for the day. It is pushing 100* and 100% humidity in the shop right now.

My old body can't take it any more.

I did get the back panel for the spare tire well cut out and run thru the roller.

I also cut out the bottom panel for the spare tire well and got those parts rough fit and mocked up.

I can not do much more final assembly until I get the new universal MOPAR 73 ohm fuel sending unit.

It is due in Tuesday.

Herb

 

["Dart67"]

Here is a photo of the first two TIG welds that I have made.

This is AFTER I CLEANED and FIX the mess I made by NOT having the aluminum CLEAN ENOUGH.

This photo is of the other end of the tank after welding on CLEAN aluminum.

Herb

 

[805moparkid]

i didn't know the A1000 is submersible...

 

["Dart67"]

I got a little more done today before the heat and humidity got me again.

The FEDEX man delivered my AN line and fittings from Jeg's this morning.

This let me get on with the fuel pump mounting and line mockup.

I got the nut serts installed in the fuel pump mounting base and got it welded in place.

Here are a couple more photos.

This photo shows my first attempt at a sump. I may redesign it or I may just use this one.

Herb

 

[1970Duster]

Don't forget to add baffles in the tank.

 

[younggun2.0]

Don't forget to add baffles in the tank.

especially around the sending unit. this one is the most important. if you dont baffle the sender your gauge will be bouncing around all the time.

 

["Dart67"]

Here are a few photos of how I have the AN-8 Fuel Supply line ,AN-6 Fuel Return Line and Power Wire ran through the center of the front and rear frame rails.

This is where the lines exit the rear of the front frame rail.

This is where the lines go into the front of the rear frame rail.

This is where a gusset was removed to get through the rear frame rail.
It is under the axle bump stop.

This is not the final exit location of the lines.

Once I get the tank mounted, I will drill holes in the side of the frame rail for the supply and return lines.

The line with the fitting is the supply line at the old pump location.

Herb

 

[younggun2.0]

I would be nervous about running the power wire right next to the braided fuel line. after time the vibrations could rub thru the wire housing and then you could have it arching on the stainless fuel line. just a thought.

 

["Dart67"]

Don't forget to add baffles in the tank.

I do not have them made up yet.

If I use the sump, I am not going to put any baffles in the main tank. If I do not use the sump, I will use baffles in the tank.
If I do use the sump, I am going to put two baffles in it evenly spaced. They will run from the front to the rear.

Herb

 

["Dart67"]

I would be nervous about running the power wire right next to the braided fuel line. after time the vibrations could rub thru the wire housing and then you could have it arching on the stainless fuel line. just a thought.

Been there for almost ten years. No problems so far.

It is heavy welding cable. You cannot tell to well from the photos, but the cables are also inside of heavy industrial heat shrink the entire length as extra protection.

Herb

 

[younggun2.0]

[quote="Dart67";1970098824]Been there for almost ten years. No problems so far.

It is heavy welding cable. You cannot tell to well from the photos, but the cables are also inside of heavy industrial heat shrink the entire length as extra protection.

Herb[/quote]

roger that. continue on with the nice work.

 

["Dart67"]

i didn't know the A1000 is submersible...

Yep, it sure is.

When I first built this car, I had the same fuel cooling problems.

At that time I talked with Aeromotive Tech Support. They told me to do two things.

One, use one of their Fuel Pump Speed Controllers on the fuel pump.

Two, mount the A1000 INSIDE of the tank if I could.

I did not have the TIME or $$ at that time, so it never got done.

I still don't have the $$, but I have the time and enjoy building and doing things myself instead of buying things.

Herb

 

["Dart67"]

To get a feel for whether the heat comes from the pump or the exhaust & hot engine bay, calculate the electrical power into the pump: P = I x dV. Ex. if it is drawing 10 A, P = (10 A) * (12 V) = 120 W. That energy is going into the fuel. I expect your pump draws ~2 A steady-state. It is a bit hard to measure such currents. Easiest is a clamp-on DC current probe. I just bought some for work at $440 ea. For home, I bought an earlier F.W. Bell one for $15 on ebay. See why I like ebay?

Bill,

I called Aeromotive today. The tech guy told me that at 45 psi the A1000 pump draws 12.3 amps. He also said to be on the safe side in case I choose to raise the fuel pressure just to figure 15 amps.

Herb

 

[Bakerlite]

The problem I had is the location of the tank itself, makes it hard to run decent pipes by.
So I removed the tank, cut out the bottom of the spare wheel well and fabricated a round tank to fit in where the spare used to go. It sat down about 3 inches below where the bottom of the spare wheel well sat. The top of the tank is flat so I now have a flat trunk floor.