Aluminum heads

[Dan s]

I appreciate all the comments. When I start this build in May I’m almost certain it will be a stroker. Any thoughts on the 373 compared to the 416. Is one more reliable than the other. I have read that some don’t like the 4 inch stroke because of the angle of the connecting rod at the bottom of the stroke. (I think I worded that right).

 

[Dan s]

This says already balanced. Any thoughts

 

[Dan s]

If u open it up it gives you this info. I thought you had to have the fly wheel balanced too

 

[Dan s]

As far as heads. There are 3 options on springs. 1.46, 1.56, and 1.55. I’m pretty sure that the cam will dictate what size. Or would I have to replace as needed.

 

[TurboGLH]

View attachment 1715400757 As far as heads. There are 3 options on springs. 1.46, 1.56, and 1.55. I’m pretty sure that the cam will dictate what size. Or would I have to replace as needed.

Cam type dictates, there are three spring options and four head choices (hyd roller spring can come with chrome moly or titanium retainers)

 

[Dan s]

Cam type dictates, there are three spring options and four head choices (hyd roller spring can come with chrome moly or titanium retainers)

That’s what I figured. I have been watching the stroker specific cam thread. And trying to understand timing events, lsa,and lift better. Some of the stuff that is said on that thread makes my head hurt. Lol.

 

[Dan s]

Is this to much compression for pump gas? Quench? Maybe needs a thicker head gasket.

 

[Cudafever]

That’s what I figured. I have been watching the stroker specific cam thread. And trying to understand timing events, lsa,and lift better. Some of the stuff that is said on that thread makes my head hurt. Lol.

There is nothing wrong with this. Getting a better understanding of cams and how all the spec' come together is good.
But in the end. giving a cam manufacturer all your spec's and what you expect out of the eng. and having a custom cam built will make the best power, were you want it..

 

[nm9stheham]

View attachment 1715400761 Is this to much compression for pump gas? Quench? Maybe needs a thicker head gasket.

• KB piston designs typically come out around .012" below deck for a typical LA block.
  
• Make the dome volume 24 or 24.5 to account for the gap beside the piston down to the top ring.
  
• If you use the .028" head gaskets and the .012" below deck, then you get a good gap for quench/squish and static CR of around 10.2.
  
• That is all good! But the numbers need to be double-checked and verified at assembly or earlier.

Just a warning on this kit: Find out which exact piston this kit has!!! The dish spec looks like a KB356 which has a .085" step up on the piston crown on the upper side, which is more than tall enough to slam into the cylinder head with this setup. It is not designed to be used with closed chamber heads. The piston you want is the KB416, which does not have this small step on the piston crown. The KB416 has a dish volume of 25 cc's and so puts your static CR right at 10.0 with the same parameters.

BTW, any reason to go with a 340 and not a 360 for this? The 8 extra cubes is not important for a simple street engine IMHO.

And for the balance... the flywheel is balanced separately if the engine rotating assembly is 'internally balanced' (i.e., balanced by itself). I see the note on your site pix that mentions '(Heavy metal is additional if required.)'; expect that extra charge with the cast crank.

 

[j par]

Because TF uses a longer than stock valve, they actually engineered the stands and saddles for it. So in some cases you won't need a B3 correction kit. Lead69 didn't need one.

So the stands are actually taller and the saddles moved away from the springs.

They are actually worth the money.

On the head you bought I'm not sure if the moved the stands and saddles. If they didn't, you'll certainly need a correction kit from Mike.

Hughes sent me shims, didn't need them. (Still have them) I'm under the impression these are factory copys witch I'm hoping will work in my favor...
EDIT: It's almost 7am, are you doing bankers hours? Pictures first thing in the morning....

 

[j par]

View attachment 1715400761 Is this to much compression for pump gas? Quench? Maybe needs a thicker head gasket.

My best advice is to keep asking all of these questions until February or March and not make a purchase before then of anything...
This'll also give you time to collectively figure out who's giving you good advice and who is just making your head hurt from the b******* they're spilling...

 

[yellow rose]

Hughes sent me shims, didn't need them. (Still have them) I'm under the impression these are factory copys witch I'm hoping will work in my favor...
EDIT: It's almost 7am, are you doing bankers hours? Pictures first thing in the morning....

Getting my laundry done first. Motocross Of Nations comes on at 0900 today. That's going to be hard to DVR and watch later.

 

[j par]

Getting my laundry done first. Motocross Of Nations comes on at 0900 today. That's going to be hard to DVR and watch later.

We don't want "reasons" we want pictures...lol...
Edit: and not to be a Debbie Downer here but is there any reason you can't or we can't stop mucking up this thread with talk about your pictures and actually talk about it on your thread where your pictures will be?...

 

[yellow rose]

Hughes sent me shims, didn't need them. (Still have them) I'm under the impression these are factory copys witch I'm hoping will work in my favor...
EDIT: It's almost 7am, are you doing bankers hours? Pictures first thing in the morning....

If they are just shims, meaning they have no taper to them, they are pretty much worthless. Dave and I have had that discussion several times and I finally figured out he either doesn't understand geometry or he doesn't care.

For the shim to work, it has to raise the shaft AND move it away from the valve. Just raising the shaft doesn't correct the geometry. And I've seen those shims break the saddles.

One thing that is a quick tell if the geometry is off is when the OD of the spring is 1.550 or less and the rocker hits the spring. Rather than fix it correctly, the hack is to open up the spring pocket in the rocker. That's not a good fix.

The best fix is to raise and move the shaft.

 

[yellow rose]

We don't want "reasons" we want pictures...lol...
Edit: and not to be a Debbie Downer here but is there any reason you can't or we can't stop mucking up this thread with talk about your pictures and actually talk about it on your thread where your pictures will be?...

Because you asked???????

 

[j par]

If they are just shims, meaning they have no taper to them, they are pretty much worthless. Dave and I have had that discussion several times and I finally figured out he either doesn't understand geometry or he doesn't care.

For the shim to work, it has to raise the shaft AND move it away from the valve. Just raising the shaft doesn't correct the geometry. And I've seen those shims break the saddles.

One thing that is a quick tell if the geometry is off is when the OD of the spring is 1.550 or less and the rocker hits the spring. Rather than fix it correctly, the hack is to open up the spring pocket in the rocker. That's not a good fix.

The best fix is to raise and move the shaft.

You see some pictures of how you do this would be a tremendous help..
And I'll continue down this line because this is about heads and such...
One question is there any chance that the Hughes rockers have some of the geometry figured out in The Rocker itself?..

 

[yellow rose]

You see some pictures of how you do this would be a tremendous help..
And I'll continue down this line because this is about heads and such...
One question is there any chance that the Hughes rockers have some of the geometry figured out in The Rocker itself?..

It's hard to take pictures and see what you are looking at with the heads on and in the car but I'll see if I can get a picture or two that's clear enough so it can be seen.

As for Dave's rocker and correct geometry, there is more to it than just the rocker. Where the stands and saddles are placed, the diameter of the roller wheel, installed height of the valve...thinking I'm forgetting some things but that's some of the things that affect geometry.

When I did my engine I used the stock length valves and installed height, which made it hard to net .600 lift but I did. I know Crane made a nice spring just for that, but I found a spring that Doug Herbert sells that did the job for half the money plus I also got matching Ti retainers. And I have PRW 1.6 stainless rockers.

To get all that back to correct Mike had to make shims that raised the shaft .275 and moved it back .080 away from the valve. That's far enough up and away I had to offset the holes in the shaft.

If I switched rockers to a Hughes, or a HS or an MP rocker I may have to change it or maybe not, because of how the rocker is designed. Mikes website has really good stuff about this and he goes into more detail about it.

 

[j par]

It's hard to take pictures and see what you are looking at with the heads on and in the car but I'll see if I can get a picture or two that's clear enough so it can be seen.

As for Dave's rocker and correct geometry, there is more to it than just the rocker. Where the stands and saddles are placed, the diameter of the roller wheel, installed height of the valve...thinking I'm forgetting some things but that's some of the things that affect geometry.

When I did my engine I used the stock length valves and installed height, which made it hard to net .600 lift but I did. I know Crane made a nice spring just for that, but I found a spring that Doug Herbert sells that did the job for half the money plus I also got matching Ti retainers. And I have PRW 1.6 stainless rockers.

To get all that back to correct Mike had to make shims that raised the shaft .275 and moved it back .080 away from the valve. That's far enough up and away I had to offset the holes in the shaft.

If I switched rockers to a Hughes, or a HS or an MP rocker I may have to change it or maybe not, because of how the rocker is designed. Mikes website has really good stuff about this and he goes into more detail about it.

so then again as you ended up with their it could be something in the design of The Rocker itself that helps the geometry?..

 

[j par]

Meaning it's already got the .08 backwards it needs just the .250 up?
Since we're kind of spitballing here...

 

[Dan s]

• KB piston designs typically come out around .012" below deck for a typical LA block.
  
• Make the dome volume 24 or 24.5 to account for the gap beside the piston down to the top ring.
  
• If you use the .028" head gaskets and the .012" below deck, then you get a good gap for quench/squish and static CR of around 10.2.
  
• That is all good! But the numbers need to be double-checked and verified at assembly or earlier.

Just a warning on this kit: Find out which exact piston this kit has!!! The dish spec looks like a KB356 which has a .085" step up on the piston crown on the upper side, which is more than tall enough to slam into the cylinder head with this setup. It is not designed to be used with closed chamber heads. The piston you want is the KB416, which does not have this small step on the piston crown. The KB416 has a dish volume of 25 cc's and so puts your static CR right at 10.0 with the same parameters.

BTW, any reason to go with a 340 and not a 360 for this? The 8 extra cubes is not important for a simple street engine IMHO.

And for the balance... the flywheel is balanced separately if the engine rotating assembly is 'internally balanced' (i.e., balanced by itself). I see the note on your site pix that mentions '(Heavy metal is additional if required.)'; expect that extra charge with the cast crank.

I already have the block that has been punched 30 and line bored. I just need to get it checked out because it came with the car. I don’t see any reason to purchase another motor and have to take it to the machine shop.

I’ll take a look at the pistons in the kit. I’m basically window shopping today. I think I’ve been on almost every performance web page this morning. Built like four or five motors. Lol


As for the pics a 7am. I just got to work. I’m the only one here. Just watching subcontractors finish there work. Then I gotta go to Tampa till about Xmas.

 

[lead69]

One thing I would add is for the minimal price difference I would go with forged pistons,yes they may not be necessary but they are much better machined and never need to be upgraded if power levels rise. If you want to piece together a kit check these guys prices out, they by far have everybody beat on the icon pistons. Search results for: 'ic 745'

 

[yellow rose]

Meaning it's already got the .08 backwards it needs just the .250 up?
Since we're kind of spitballing here...

The shims Mike makes do both...raises the shaft and moves it away. Pretty cool.

Had to take the FIL to the ER. I just got home and posted the head pictures in a new thread in the race forum.

I'll pull a valve cover after I eat some lunch and try a get a picture of Mikes stuff.

 

[furrystump]

no longevity issues with a 4” crank whatsoever. Especially at your hp goal. You will need a dished piston to better accommodate the increase in stroke. I have run the Icon 742 dished piston .010 in the hole with closed chamber heads. .039 head gasket on pump gas. It was about 10 to 1. KB and Icon are all same manufacturer. If you go cast crank no eagle cranks. With stroke you need all the cylinder head you can get to optimize the package. That being said I ran 12.47 with untouched eddy heads with those Icon pistons and scat cast 4” crank. Still running the crank and rods but with an Icon flat top at about 12.2 to 1 with a ported cast iron x head, best to date 11.83. My guess is with the trick flow head and airgap and headers, you could be close enough to need a bar in the car. Which you don’t want to do. It’s a street car after all.

 

[Dan s]

no longevity issues with a 4” crank whatsoever. Especially at your hp goal. You will need a dished piston to better accommodate the increase in stroke. I have run the Icon 742 dished piston .010 in the hole with closed chamber heads. .039 head gasket on pump gas. It was about 10 to 1. KB and Icon are all same manufacturer. If you go cast crank no eagle cranks. With stroke you need all the cylinder head you can get to optimize the package. That being said I ran 12.47 with untouched eddy heads with those Icon pistons and scat cast 4” crank. Still running the crank and rods but with an Icon flat top at about 12.2 to 1 with a ported cast iron x head, best to date 11.83. My guess is with the trick flow head and airgap and headers, you could be close enough to need a bar in the car. Which you don’t want to do. It’s a street car after all.

Holy crap. When I started thinking about this motor I never really thought about what kinda horse power it would make. I haven’t but a horsepower “goal” into it. Probly won’t. To me it’s about parts working like they should. Also it’s about torque to me. I know horsepower and torque go together. I haven’t mentioned cams yet cause that will be another thread. (And I have see how those turn out. Lol). I’m ready to get started but I don’t have the time. It’s outage season so I won’t get home till May. Hopefully when I order I will have most of the parts nailed down. I been keeping a running tab on how much I’m gonna spend and it not near as bad As I thought it would be. So far I’m gonna go with the trickflo heads and the scat rotating assembly. I’ll check out the I con pistons.

 

[Dan s]

Some one tell me if I am wrong. As far as some of the small parts. I can use stuff like wiindage tray. Can I rob it off the motor that is coming out of the car. ( alternator brackets)

Is a 750 gonna be enough carb