Am I crazy???

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NukeBass

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I really know the answer to that question, but here's how it relates to my recent motor experience.

I got my 73 Duster restored at a shop recently (long project, took two years, ugh) as outlined in the 73 B3 Duster thread in the restorations section. The guy I took it to runs a shop and had a separate guy, a friend of his, build the motor. It used to have a slant six and I decided to do a swap with a 340 block I found at Carlisle a couple of years ago. In the process, I also went with a TKO-500 transmission because I liked the idea of an overdrive gear.

In my discussions with both the motor guy and the shop guy, I thought I was clear in describing that I wanted a driver car. I know a 340 can be and is a powerful motor, but I was looking for something stock-ish that I could easily drive around town because my intent was, and still is, to drive the car frequently and with the family. I wanted it to be a fun time car with a bit of power. I figured that back in 73, people would use 340s as everyday drivers and they would be okay in that purpose. Nothing too powerful or too rough, or at least that was my understanding from my father's descriptions.

The few times the motor guy and I talked, it seemed like we were on the same page and, when we first talked, he spoke of something around 300-325 hp with improved parts and tolerances and so forth and I'm thinking, "great, better tolerances means better efficiency." At one point he said I may even be able to get around 14 or 15 mpg with it, which is about what I was getting in my slant before I replaced it. I thought we were good to go and I had no worries about the motor.

A couple of years has passed and I finally hear the car run the day I go pick it up. The shop guy put it in a local show and I met him there and rode back to his shop in it. To me, it idled really rough and was really loud (now, I did put TTI headers on it with the standard mufflers that come with the A body headers, so that may be some of the loud). I asked the guy about the idle and he said you can't get a smooth idle with this kind of performance. You have one or the other.

So, I pick up the car and drive it home, all the while not liking the idle on the thing and thinking it runs a lot stronger than I imagined. My father was with me and said he thought it sounded more like a 440 than a 340 and that, from what he understood about motors, they put an aggressive cam in it. Now, keep in mind as I tell this story that I know little about motors except some basic premises. I know nothing about how to build and match parts for specific applications or anything like that which is why I had someone else do all of this work.

After a couple of days, including experiencing difficult starting that is probably due to a rebuilt carburetor (that will be fixed), I call the shop guy back. In our discussions, initially about getting the car to start, I complain about the idle and say that I think I got a high performance engine instead of a driver. He said I was talking about wanting 400 hp, which I never said. He also said that if I wanted it smoother, the cam would probably have to change.

I call the motor guy, and he said it was a mild cam and it wasn't idling all of that rough. He said there really isn't anything we can do without major engine modification (changing the cam at least), but we were going for 375 hp. I told him I wanted a driver and I never said anything about 375 hp. The last time we talked about numbers (we're talking two years ago) he said 300-325 hp so I have no idea where 375 came from.

Okay, so with all of that being said (sorry for the long story, but I am still somewhat in the venting phase about this project), am I crazy in thinking that a 340 can be built to be a decent driver car with a fairly smooth idle? I know it is going to have some power behind it and will idle a little bit rough, but I think what I have is excessive for what I was pretty certain I asked for in the beginning. The motor guy said that he could have gotten me a 318 with a 2bbl carb, but I had the 340 block and so on.

I looked at the paperwork I have and this is the cam they put in it. http://www.compperformancegroupstor...Product_Code=20-224-4&Category_Code=LACAMHFXE

Like I said, I don't know really anything about what various cams do so I don't know if changing the camshaft is an answer or possible solution to what I want. If it is, that's extra time and cost to an already waaaaaayyyyyy over budget project. I'm hoping they work with me on this, but I have nothing written down saying explicitly what I wanted. Granted, I have nothing written down saying 400 hp, either, but I'm worried all of the cost will come back to me.

So, aside from being the only man on the planet to want less power (I am simple person with a wife and two kids who just wanted to spruce up the car I grew up in and have something fun to drive), am I totally crazy in wanting a 340 for this application?
 
No, your 80 year old grandma could drive a stone stock 340..... you need a shop who knows how to LISTEN... but really, a cam swap is probally all you really need.....if it has a reasonable compression ratio
 
I've got an 06 Dakota and my wife drives an 05 Acura TL.

I like the look of headers and figured they'd be good for efficiency. I don't know off hand what the compression ratio is on it. He might have written it down in the notes.
 
Headers and compression ratio are not going to make that engine "difficult to drive."

I don't know anything about your camshaft, but the website says "power from 1800--6000" That to me sounds like a fairly mild cam

You may and probably do have tuning issues, or possibly something wrong with the carb, example, high float level, etc.

The highest performance FACTORY engines Mopar ever built and sold to the public could be driven by anyone, and that includes 440 / 340 "six packs" and 426 hemis.

There were very few factory U.S. cars that had what might be called poor street manners. A couple that come to mind were the 302 Boss and Camaros were pretty "lopey." The old 365/ 375 hp Corvettes were as well, and were high geared, so they should be included.

Those types of cars are in the minority

Factory 340's were certainly NOT difficult to drive. They had a barely detectable lope at idle, LOTS of bottom end torque right off idle.
 
I can still drive it okay, and it takes off really fast if I want it to, I just don't like the rough idle. I'm trying to make sure I'm not looking for something unrealistic with a 340 being a pseudo daily driver that I can take the kids out in and drive for a while without shaking them apart, if that makes sense. To me it has a considerable lope at idle, or at least a lot more of a lope than I was expecting.

I have another 150 miles or so to put on the car before the guy at the shop changes all the break in fluids. If the carb lasts that long, that will be the time the carb gets fixed, hopefully with a new one. I've never had a good experience with store bought rebuilt carbs. Hopefully, too, we can start talking about taming the idle a little and what options they've come up with to get what I wanted.

Thanks for the replies.
 
if you dont like a 230* duration cam... that thing should idle nice and easy with a nice lope. that cam should make some really good tq which is what you want on the street. the reason its so peppy is because it was woken up with the work done to it. it sounds like you wanted them to build a completly stock 340...

take it to a mopar guy and have tuned.
 
You can build a 340 to 318 spec's if wanted too
 
Yeah, you're crazy!
If you wanted a mild engine that you could cruise with, you should have went with a stock 318.
The engine builders aren't really at fault here. Maybe some miscommunication about your needs, but it's pretty easy to get 375-400 horse out of a fairly mild 340.
Get them to de tune the engine with a smaller stock type 340 cam or sell the 340 as is and get them to build a stock 318 2 barrel and install it. You would be money ahead.
Usually people complain that the engine doesn't have enough power or an aggressive enough idle for them.
Consider yourself lucky. You got your money's worth and more.
 
I'm thinking part of what happened is they may have forgotten exactly what I said I was going to use it for, given the amount of time that passed, and that I am not a motor guy so didn't know how to communicate what I really wanted clearly. To them, this may be a close to stock motor that idles nicely. There's not doubt that the work done on the motor was good work. In the end, I may have to consider a swap with a 318.
 
NukeBass said:
I'm thinking part of what happened is they may have forgotten exactly what I said I was going to use it for, given the amount of time that passed, and that I am not a motor guy so didn't know how to communicate what I really wanted clearly. To them, this may be a close to stock motor that idles nicely. There's not doubt that the work done on the motor was good work. In the end, I may have to consider a swap with a 318.
Click to expand...

70AARCuda is very reasonable in his reply; some distributor carb tuning can be used to alter the idle without really hurting the rest.
 
I would give it until the carb rebuild or replacement and see what happens then. Any way you could post up a sound clip of it?
C
 
None of this makes a lot of sense to me. I will say this... People talk too much these days. Whether face to face, telephone, text, social networks, it adds up to excess BS.
If you want a stock rebuild those 2 words are all that's needed.
I know several guys personally who have the Tim The Toolman Taylor "more power" mentality. It runs against their grain to do a totally stock rebuild. Give them one opening or keyword and they'll run with it. Aftermarket brand names like TTI, Elelbrock, etc.., are key words for performance build.
 
Consider yourself lucky that you have a strong good running engine!

Its not going to idle like a Prius! LOL!:toothy9:
 
scuba0331 said:
Consider yourself lucky that you have a strong good running engine!

Its not going to idle like a Prius! LOL!:toothy9:
Click to expand...

I want it to idle like a LEAF! :D

I will be driving it this weekend for sure so, after it gets good and warm, when the carburetor generally functions well, I'll try to take some video. At the latest it will be Sunday when I drive to church.
 
I wouldn't pull the 340. It is a fresh strong engine. Just do a cam swap and enjoy it. But as mentioned earlier I would get it tuned before I did anything major to it.
 
duster360 said:
I wouldn't pull the 340. It is a fresh strong engine. Just do a cam swap and enjoy it. But as mentioned earlier I would get it tuned before I did anything major to it.
Click to expand...

and put what in it? 210* @ .050? 220* @ .050? they built him a near stock 340 and he just needs to get it properly tuned. dizzy curve, carb tuning, probably even a correct converter
 
I'd say get a second opinion from someone else. Never hurts. Also, what motor mounts did they put in it? If they're also `performance' mounts, they could be exagerating alot of engine vibration.
 
I asked them about tuning and they said there wasn't anything to do with the tune since it was already tuned up well. it does have a Rev-N-Nator ignition on it, which they spoke highly of, but I don't know how that would affect anything.

A second opinion does sound like a good idea. I live near Charlotte, NC so there are bound to be other places to ask questions of. Maybe I'll swing by a couple during my break in period and see what another shop says.
 
I suggested the exhaust change because it would pull out a bunch of the perceived radicalness.

The TTI exhaust standard muffler is a Dinomax Super Turbo. The standard optional muffler is the Ultra Flow.

I still suggest playing with the tuning and at least choking it down with a nice quiet muffler before attempting anything drastic.

Your daily rides have a nice smooth idle and computer controlled engines, you will have a learning curve with this old car.
 
Tune it,,

Ill bet it's running a stock 8 degree initial timing,, instead of what we know these days about high initial advance..

My son backs his timing up when he drives it thru "cool places" so he gets the rough idle, loping sound,, then turns the corner, outta sight,, and boosts his timing back up, to smooth it out and get decent power..

I bet you just need a "mopar" guy to tune it up,,

but mainly just late timing..
 
You seem to "on about" the blame game and blaming this builder, and THAT MAY NOT be the cause at all!!!

Since you don't seem to be able to perform your own work, there's only one thing to do---find a good local shop, someone that specializes in performance work, and get them to go through it and make sure it's tuned as well as could be

As I said before............or to make things much more clear...........

JUST TIMING and the distributor advance curve can completely change the personality of an engine

SOMETHING AMISS in the carburetor, such as high float level, can cause a rough idle

YOU being used to drivin' some typical 3 cylinder mileage master may just not be used to the response of a car of this nature

AND simple stuff like the CARBURETOR and THROTTLE linkage hookup. If for example the carb linkage is hooked to one of the lower holes in the linkage, THIS WILL CAUSE the carb butterflies to open much more rapidly with a small amount of "foot" input. This can make a car seem jumpy and difficult to control

I've been driving my mild 318 Dart all summer, which AIN'T all that fast. Even at that, when getting "back into" my old V6 powered Olds, the Olds seems like a complete stone. I have to "give" it much more throttle to get it to "move" than I do the Dart.

I don't think the cam that's in this engine is very radical at all. GET THE ENGINE TUNED and checked out FOR CERTAIN for proper timing and advance curve, for proper carb operation, and for throttle cable hookup.

LOOK at the throttle hookup below. NOTICE that the throttle linkage is hooked to one of the holes closer to the throttle shaft. This QUICKENS throttle opening and could be part of the problem

cam_location_on_t-lever.jpg
 
Ok I've been in a similar situation as you, I can do some work myself, but often pay someone to work on my car or engine or whatever. Sometimes my expectations are lost in translation. Its always good to put your desires in writing, this equals less confusion, and some proof to your claims if your needs are not met. Definitely start with the carburator, you already KNOW its not working properly so obviously start there. Ive never had any luck with rebuilds, after spending so much money on the restoration and the engine, whats a few hundred bucks on a brand new carb??? I've found new headers on a car have a louder, sort obnoxious sound to em'.... I have noticed that sort-of "mellows" after awhile. And come to think of it, if you wanted basically a stock 340 why did you add the TTI's???? Just drive the damn car and enjoy it, if you don't want crazy launches off the light, then go easy on the gas pedal... simple! I think you've waited a long time for your car to be complete, after a restoration and a new engine there's ALWAYS bugs that need to be worked out, don't freak just deal with em one at a time. Scientific Fact... Horsepower is addictive!!! Drive the car for a year, you'll probably notice that crazy horsepower less and less... then you might even return to your engine builder and want more!!! Just don't do anything until you've addressed the carb issue, and until you've driven the car for a good length of time not just a couple of days.
 
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