Bad machine work or am i over looking something?
- Thread starter Cudafever
- Start date
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Just what I need to do. Build engines based on a TV show.
Purple Haze
Well-Known Member
805moparkid
Slant and AFX Guy
Yeah, ok. But I do it my way. ;)
CPMotorworks
Well-Known Member
Take the crank out and fit the thrust bearing in it, check clearance with feeler gauge.
Studs need clearance to the caps- they cannot fit tight or they will bind up the cap and **** the thrust. You also need to line hone the mains when converting to studs as it loads the caps and block differently. Do not be wailing away on anything with a BFH please!
OK here's the scoop!
I had my glass cut, 320 wet-n-dry sand paper in hand.... thinking to my self.....that dam cap just needs to move over........why won't it move over........pull the two studs out and installed to different ones.........Wooo Hoooo crank turn free and i has end play!!!!!!!!
And i didn't/don't have .002 end play, I have .005" end play. Why.....because i had a 2 and 2.5 thou feeler gauges stuck together:banghead:
Thanks to every one for your help!:thumblef:
I had my glass cut, 320 wet-n-dry sand paper in hand.... thinking to my self.....that dam cap just needs to move over........why won't it move over........pull the two studs out and installed to different ones.........Wooo Hoooo crank turn free and i has end play!!!!!!!!
And i didn't/don't have .002 end play, I have .005" end play. Why.....because i had a 2 and 2.5 thou feeler gauges stuck together:banghead:
Thanks to every one for your help!:thumblef:
805moparkid
Slant and AFX Guy
i dont think your putting two and two together. AJPE is run by Allen Johnson, Mopar Pro stock champ.
http://www.allenjohnson.com/
Look dude, I don't give a damn who he is. I do stuff my own way. I don't copy other people. I don't care who they are. What I do is an accumulation of what I've learned from different sources through the years. Allen Johnson aint one of them up to this point. So far, I've done pretty good.
1wild&crazyguy
Banned
Glad to hear man.
CP motor works,good info.
moper
Well-Known Member
You may want to see if those two studs are bent... If they are cocking the thrust they will try to **** the next cap you use them on and at minimum affect the oil clearance. I've seen them get bent at a shop when the block was lifted using a strap and overhead hoist into a peice of equipment. The #1 cap was not torqued and the leverage was enough to bend the studs. It was noted when they did torque the cap and it wouldn't line up. In any case - as was noted by CP - the studs need to be fit to the caps - somethings they holes need enlarging - then the caps torqued a couple times, then it should be line bored and honed.
Thanks moper, i will roll them on the plate of glass i was going to use for sanding the thrust.
May be buying a hole new set.
The mains were line bored.
I thing/hope it's more of a small hole for the stud then the stud........But will check them all before i move on.
Thanks
rolled all the main studs on a plate of glass. there all straight.
I got thrust clearance by forcing the crank over with a screw driver and a hammer. torque cap and then releasing screw driver.
As soon as i unbolt the cap, the clearance go's a way. so i know i'm bending or flexing the stud to get what i want.
Not happy with this. Will be taking the cap to my buddy to have the hole milled .016 or so larger in the direction i need the cap to move.
The main cap bolts are .445 and the stud are .496 . So a .050" larger hole would allow the cap to shift, just like it could with the bolts. but i thing i will have him just take .016 on one side of the hole or make it into a small oval hole instead of a round one.
The problem is that he can't get to it for a week...........So my build is on hold, again.
I got thrust clearance by forcing the crank over with a screw driver and a hammer. torque cap and then releasing screw driver.
As soon as i unbolt the cap, the clearance go's a way. so i know i'm bending or flexing the stud to get what i want.
Not happy with this. Will be taking the cap to my buddy to have the hole milled .016 or so larger in the direction i need the cap to move.
The main cap bolts are .445 and the stud are .496 . So a .050" larger hole would allow the cap to shift, just like it could with the bolts. but i thing i will have him just take .016 on one side of the hole or make it into a small oval hole instead of a round one.
The problem is that he can't get to it for a week...........So my build is on hold, again.
moper
Well-Known Member
It almost sounds like the cap was on backwards whn they line honed it. What happens if you disregard the placement of the bearing tangs and put the cap on backwards?
Yup had the same thought. when it is installed backwards, have the same clearance issues but is much tighter or harder to turn and the crank has to shift the other direction to allow the cap to be installed.
Either this bearing shell was built wrong........or the factory machined the cap wrong.........Either way, if i can get the cap to shift, its all right.
Some one suggested that it my be the wrong cap aka off of another eng. it my be but, now that its line bored it family. just got to get it to get along with the block.
Do you thing it's a bad idea to oval the hole???
What would you do in this situation???
moper
Well-Known Member
If it was me, I'd bring it back to the shop that line honed it and tell them to fix the work and get you replacement cam bearings and block hardware so it can be properly washed. I would not oval holes or sand bearings. Have them fix the mess they created.
Ok, but how can the line hone cause the cap to be out of alignment...thrust wise?
This was a complete block that was disassembled?
When i force the crank/ main cap and toque to get trust or free play it spins free.But when i put the cap on backward and make the same clearance, it is still tight.
The cap didn't get machined on backwards......
This was a complete block that was disassembled?
When i force the crank/ main cap and toque to get trust or free play it spins free.But when i put the cap on backward and make the same clearance, it is still tight.
The cap didn't get machined on backwards......
CPMotorworks
Well-Known Member
Studs causing binding problems in the caps is a common issue across all brands of engines.
Did that shop the did the block know you were using studs and did they use them to line hone the block?
Was the block line bored and honed or just line honed?
Very rarely does a block need to be line bored unless steel caps are installed or the mains have severe damage. A line hone only needs .005" removed from the caps and leaves a better finish and bore alignment.
Factory machined blocks are far from perfect, because its done in a production setting. Everything is not square and hole location perfect. Taking up any tolerance on the hole diameter by changing to studs from undercut bolts will cause issues, and some people will get out the BFH before using common sense. I had an an Olds in last year that cost $12k from another shop and it had the same issue. They had installed studs and not relieved the caps and it was bound up between the stud and the register. Didn't make it 30 miles and smoked the bearings and the crank.
All the OP needs to do is drill/ream the holes to .515/.530 and make sure the studs are not binding and he will be good to go. If the shop that did the line hone had the studs on hand they should have done this, but if they were not aware of studs being installed it is not their fault.
Did that shop the did the block know you were using studs and did they use them to line hone the block?
Was the block line bored and honed or just line honed?
Very rarely does a block need to be line bored unless steel caps are installed or the mains have severe damage. A line hone only needs .005" removed from the caps and leaves a better finish and bore alignment.
Factory machined blocks are far from perfect, because its done in a production setting. Everything is not square and hole location perfect. Taking up any tolerance on the hole diameter by changing to studs from undercut bolts will cause issues, and some people will get out the BFH before using common sense. I had an an Olds in last year that cost $12k from another shop and it had the same issue. They had installed studs and not relieved the caps and it was bound up between the stud and the register. Didn't make it 30 miles and smoked the bearings and the crank.
All the OP needs to do is drill/ream the holes to .515/.530 and make sure the studs are not binding and he will be good to go. If the shop that did the line hone had the studs on hand they should have done this, but if they were not aware of studs being installed it is not their fault.
Line hone or bore? i can't find my paper work right now so i don't know. It was done with the studs installed. and the deck was squared as well to get my "0" deck, all the way across the deck. The deck was high on left front and on the right side rear. had to be squared as well as decked to get the pistons flush.
So do you thing i need to clearance ALL the caps for studs, or just the thrust, aka #3 cap.
Edit: Found it. Line bore checked and line honed.
So do you thing i need to clearance ALL the caps for studs, or just the thrust, aka #3 cap.
Edit: Found it. Line bore checked and line honed.
CPMotorworks
Well-Known Member
I would do all of them. Having caps bind on studs and try to force against the block register is never a good thing.
moper
Well-Known Member
Studs causing binding problems in the caps is a common issue across all brands of engines.
Very rarely does a block need to be line bored unless steel caps are installed or the mains have severe damage.
Totally disagree because of a combination of what you wrote below and the improving of machining processes and equipment. If you want the accuracy and ultimately the performance and longevity you have to address the inconsistencies and have the accuracy brought up to modern standards as a starting point. IMO, you are closer to being right if you get further from performance as a goal. Performance including smoothness, longevity, and economy.
Factory machined blocks are far from perfect, because its done in a production setting. Everything is not square and hole location perfect.
If the shop that did the line hone had the studs on hand they should have done this, but if they were not aware of studs being installed it is not their fault.
Totally agree.
Very rarely does a block need to be line bored unless steel caps are installed or the mains have severe damage.
Totally disagree because of a combination of what you wrote below and the improving of machining processes and equipment. If you want the accuracy and ultimately the performance and longevity you have to address the inconsistencies and have the accuracy brought up to modern standards as a starting point. IMO, you are closer to being right if you get further from performance as a goal. Performance including smoothness, longevity, and economy.
Factory machined blocks are far from perfect, because its done in a production setting. Everything is not square and hole location perfect.
If the shop that did the line hone had the studs on hand they should have done this, but if they were not aware of studs being installed it is not their fault.
Totally agree.
Well theses were the fixes. reamed out the main caps to .030 larger before i could get the thrust to play nicely! ......have .0065" trust now. crank spins free and smooth.
Main cap #5 had to be milled down so that the hardened washer, and nut, could clear the oil pump. then i was two close to the end of the thread on top.
worried that it would run out of thread. had to mill .100" of the bottom side. The part that goes into the block.
In the end i got .040 clearance between the oil pump and the top of the stud.
The next time i decide to put main studs in. I will buy ARP bolts instead and call it good.:banghead:
Yeah i know i could have just installed a bolt there and it would have been just fine. but it was honed with that stud installed and i just had to us it.
Main cap #5 had to be milled down so that the hardened washer, and nut, could clear the oil pump. then i was two close to the end of the thread on top.
worried that it would run out of thread. had to mill .100" of the bottom side. The part that goes into the block.
In the end i got .040 clearance between the oil pump and the top of the stud.
The next time i decide to put main studs in. I will buy ARP bolts instead and call it good.:banghead:
Yeah i know i could have just installed a bolt there and it would have been just fine. but it was honed with that stud installed and i just had to us it.
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