Best K-Frame for improved handling?

[ramcharger]

Since I picked up the Duster, I've been checking out aftermarket K-frames with the intention of turning this thing into a well balanced, superior handling, lightweight "Supercar" I could turn loose on the street, strip or road course.

These guys (XVMotorsports) are doing just that with B and E body cars. They are the most expensive but the best engineered I've found yet. I gave them a call and they said that they are contemplating an "A" body kit for two reasons:

1. People who own A's aren't as skittish about modifying them as the possible finanicial loss is about nil on a /6 car vs. a rare AAR 'Cuda.

2. Anything that a B or E body could do, an A body could do better! (This was straight from the horses mouth).

They are taking names of possible customers if they decide to do this. These kits are pricey but promise better than 1g on the skidpad. This is 'vette and viper territory here. Imagine being able to out handle Scooter and Biffs new ZR1 with your Duster, Cuda, Valiant or Scamp! LOL!
OK, here's the web site: http://www.xvmotorsports.com/

Then there's Magnumforce: http://www.magnumforce.com/

Then Alterktion: http://www.reillymotorsports.com/store/home.php?cat=255

Then CAP: http://www.capautoproducts.com/

I also read of a company called "Blue Zombie" that makes suspension kits, but I don't think I would buy from them based on the name alone. lol.

Anyway, has anyone used any or all of these kits and what was your impression in regards to handling improvement, dragstrip performance, engineering, customer service, and oil pan/header clearance?

Thank you to everyone who responds! :salute:

 

[abodyjoe]

the alter-k is the best set up out there at this time.... i have one in my dart.. its a very straight forward and easy install and handles awesome on the street and the drag strip. tons of headder and oil pan clearance.. and has tons of options with a sway bar,spring rates,power steering, and different brake set ups... plus there are a ton of them out there on the street. and they have a ton of real world feedback.. i've never heard anyone complain about the alter-k. the customer service is second to none... the alter-k is pretty much the standard out there right now.


magnum force... when researching what frontend i wanted i heard way too many bad stories about magnum force. bad welds ( early on don't hear that any more), not fitting properly ( i know a guy that had to get them to send him 3 before one fit the car) poor handleing and problems with getting them to align properly. and being they use the stock shock bount to support the car people had their frame twisting and the fender to hood gaps opening up.. they now make a brace for that but if you ask me its just a band aid for a poor design...


i'm sure XV is good too but for 15K no thanks . plus they didn't build it for the a-body... why? because they aren't enthusiasts in my opinion. its all about the money with those guys... guess where that is... yup. E and B bodies...


cap- not too sure.. the owner of the company is a member here i believe. never heard anyone that runs it...

 

[abodyjoe]

here is the instal pics of my alter-k.... you can see all the room it opens up... start on page 8 and work forward.. some reason they uploaded in reverse order....

http://s70.photobucket.com/albums/i109/abodyjoe/71%20dart/alter-k/?start=140&paginator=top



.

 

[71DusterStruck]

Just by research I would say the alter-k-tion but I would wait to see what will XVmotorsports do for A-bodies. It looks like they are doing some serious work with computer simulations and actual testing, but according to Autoxcuda the LCA and UCA are taken off C5 vettes so... I do not know.
I acknowledge the fact that a -vette at the moment is as good as a Ferrari (and much cheaper) but still I would prefer something that is designed and developed specifically for mopars... hence I choose alter-k-tion for the time being!

 

[abodyjoe]

but I would wait to see what will XVmotorsports do for A-bodies. It looks like they are doing some serious work with computer simulations and actual testing, but according to Autoxcuda the LCA and UCA are taken off C5 vettes so...

+


XV says that it may never happen.. they need a certian number of deposits before they will build one.. atleast thats the last i heard or saw on moparts... the XV i believe limits you on oil pan selection..

 

[71DusterStruck]

+


XV says that it may never happen.. they need a certian number of deposits before they will build one.. atleast thats the last i heard or saw on moparts... the XV i believe limits you on oil pan selection..

Yeah well they are not getting a deposit from me... but still they are doing some nice work with the hemis... I want to see what the twin turbo version pumps out!
Checked out your installation and looks great.. I really need to gather the amount and order a kit...

 

[ramcharger]

Nice work Joe, but whatever in the world are you doing to that torsion bar? LOL!

You're right, the alterkation and the XV are the only ones with the top shock mount built in. I can't imagine all the problems that would arise using the factory top shock mount with coil over shocks as the magnumforce does.That's insane!

The XV UCA and LCA do appear to be cast aluminum items. Unless they've subcontracted a foundry, I could belive that they were sourced elsewhere (read 'vette).

XV told me flat out that they are taking names and numbers to judge interest in a A body kit. If they do decide to produce these, they will take deposits of all interested before they make 'em. It appears that they have put some serious thought and engineering into thier kits, but dam, they are pricey!

AlterKtion is looking to be the better choice.

 

[abodyjoe]

XV told me flat out that they are taking names and numbers to judge interest in a A body kit. If they do decide to produce these, they will take deposits of all interested before they make 'em. It appears that they have put some serious thought and engineering into thier kits, but dam, they are pricey!

oh i know.. just saying that there isn't anything definate to be waiting for from them. they haven't commited to making the a-body kit yet.they are just seeing if there is enough interest as of now. they definatley did their homework doing the kits but your looking at cutting the hell out of your car, most likely having someone do alot of the work on the install ( i can weld but not to the degree that is needed for their kit) and i think you need some kind of frame rack to install their kit so everything is where it needs to be. and its 15 grand.... and who knows if it acturally handles any better then a properly set up alter-k.

The XV UCA and LCA do appear to be cast aluminum items. Unless they've subcontracted a foundry, I could belive that they were sourced elsewhere (read 'vette).

they are definatley vette.. john said so when he first started posting at moparts.

 

[ramcharger]

Excellent information Joe! I do appreciate your time. The alterktion looks like the way to go. I priced out the kit with the options I wanted and it's not cheap either, but you get what you pay for.

 

[redfastback]

i would say that after looking at joe's install, the rms setup is THE way to go. yeah after disc and shock selection you probably spend + or - 3500.00, but like you said, you get what you pay for. a) the ease of the install, b) the design that uses its own upper shock tower reinforcement, and c) the $$.
if magnumforce did a little investigation into where the energy of the shock and rebound of suspension force go, they would realize that mamopar sent it back via torsion bars into the trans xmember frame, not into a puny piece of sheetmetal known to hold a shock bushing. yeah you could add they're reinforcments in the engine bay like a racecar, but i personally don't like the looks of it, even if it does solve the flex issue.

 

[abodyjoe]

Excellent information Joe! I do appreciate your time. The alterktion looks like the way to go. I priced out the kit with the options I wanted and it's not cheap either, but you get what you pay for.

i hear ya.. none of them are cheap.

 

[dartforforty]

I purchased an Alter-k for my 68 Dart. I researched Magnum Force and heard the same that A-Body Joe did.
My setup ran closer to $4000.00, but i got the Wilwood race brake package and QA 1 double adjustable shocks. Setting my car up for track use only.
Ed

 

[dd69a]

alter k all the way

 

[rokketride]

Hey, my 1st post on the forum. I've been involved in this discussion before on moparts and such. The first time I spoke with XV about an A-body was over a year ago after the Mopar Action cover with the "jumping" Challenger came out. The story hasn't changed much since then, they just didn't know that the "cheap car" crowd were willing to spend top dollar.

The XV UCA and LCA do appear to be cast aluminum items. Unless they've subcontracted a foundry, I could belive that they were sourced elsewhere (read 'vette).

Its the LCA and Upright that are AL. Also the nice Vette sealed wheel bearing. The UCA looks to be a tubing item similar to the other ones on the market, just built to compliment the vette dimensions.

i'm sure XV is good too but for 15K no thanks . plus they didn't build it for the a-body... why? because they aren't enthusiasts in my opinion. its all about the money with those guys... guess where that is... yup. E and B bodies...

I think to be fair we can give a startup company the benefit of the doubt. B and E are very similar between the wheels. Not too much extra trouble to do both. A-body is a completely different animal.

The number $15k keeps getting thrown around, I think thats for a complete system front and rear with brakes. Their site says Level II front is 7495 (without brakes). Still a crapload of money though. RMS is roughly half the cost.

 

[abodyjoe]

either way its all about money with XV.

 

[71DusterStruck]

Just an addition to the rest:
http://www.hotrodsusa.com/store/controlfreak_ifs.html

Looks alike with the alter-k-ation

but does not need to drill holes on the frame... looks solid enough but I don't know..

 

[AdamR]

That one is a rip off of the RMS kit. They actually bought an Alterkation from bill and used it to make theres.

 

[abodyjoe]

Just an addition to the rest:
http://www.hotrodsusa.com/store/controlfreak_ifs.html

Looks alike with the alter-k-ation

but does not need to drill holes on the frame... looks solid enough but I don't know..

That one is a rip off of the RMS kit. They actually bought an Alterkation from bill and used it to make theres.

yup.. its obvious by looking at it.. they put an alter-k on the table and made a jig for it then made it out of round tubing...

 

[dead eye]

This is great information. Do you know any one that has one of these K-frame on a 66 dart?

 

[autoxcuda]

These cars all have stock K-members. Many of them have re-weld and gusseted K-members.
http://alltimeracing.com/v2/images/zoom/UCRLEH/viewsize/P1010014.jpg
http://alltimeracing.com/v2/images/zoom/UCRLEH/viewsize/IMG_2789.jpg
http://alltimeracing.com/v2/images/zoom/UCRLEH/viewsize/IMG_2861.jpg
http://alltimeracing.com/v2/compone...,28/page,view/catid,32/PageNo,5/key,40/hit,1/
http://alltimeracing.com/v2/images/zoom/UCRLEH/viewsize/IMG_2746.jpg
More pics
http://www.mrmopar.com/SpringFling2007/WillowSprings/
http://alltimeracing.com/v2/component/option,com_zoom/Itemid,28/catid,32/PageNo,1/

This is one of the fastest road race Mopars in full street trim around.

Bob's Barracuda is well sorted too. There are some suspension pics here:

http://www.carcraft.com/featuredvehicles/116_0507_1968_plymouth_barracuda_s340/barracuda_specs.html


Now since you are putting in a V-10 in an A-body, you need all the room you can get. You're going to need a fabbed K-member without T-bars no matter what.

 

[Dodgenut64]

This is great information. Do you know any one that has one of these K-frame on a 66 dart?

Yes, Bill has a Alterktion for 63-66 a-bodies. Im using one for my 64 dart. Im using a 5.7 truck hemi and the alterktion makes the install easier. I wont have to use a remote oil filter and the rack and pinion clears the exhaust well. I havent gotten to drive my car yet, so i cant say how the performance is. I do hear alot of good things about it from others who have installed them.

 

[ramcharger]

These cars all have stock K-members. Many of them have re-weld and gusseted K-members.

Good info Autox! Do you have any moe info in regards to strengthening the K frame as well as other handling mods?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[autoxcuda]

Good info Autox! Do you have any moe info in regards to strengthening the K frame as well as other handling mods?

Thanks,

Joe

The aftermarket K-frames give people some great solutions to some prolonged problems. Certain cars have tighter engine space than others. All Mopars with their T-bars make headers tough. Early A-bodies, early A-bodies with big blocks, big blocks in any A-body, Hemi conversions, and late model motor conversions present tough problems for K-members.

Plus, if you project requires all new suspension, steering gear, motor conversion plates, motor conversion K-member, new springs, shocks, brake swap, sway bars.... Add the costs and compare. A fabbed K-member, rack, with disc swap might be darn close in price and there are some great benefits.

With your V-10 into a A-body project you probably need all the flexibility you can get that a RMS Alterkion type deal can provide. I don't know what you are going to do for manifolds/headers??

But if you want to stick with a factory K-member for a stock look, budget, or class rules, you can gusset and strengthen it up. And choose some stiffer Firm Feel T-bars that fit your drivablity needs/wants.

K-member mods:
-hot tank or bake to get rid of all the hidden inside grease and grime
-when you reweld the seams the grease will ouze out and mess up the welds
-reweld the spot welds and seams
-weld areas where plates touch or nearly touch but aren't welded
-reweld around Lower Control Arm pin hole (they crack there)
-box in and connect under steering mount plate to k-member
-mock up with steering gear to check interference
-add straps and box in front of steering mount plate. (73-76 K's have better bracing around steering box)
-on 73-76 K's add plate or angle iron to triangulate from top of motor mount to K-member and leave room for oil pan

73-76 K-member:

Boxing in the top of the motor mount boxed did not work. The motor mounts needs lots of room to move around up and down.

Tip: do your mock up with the steering gear and motor mounts bolted in to check any interferences.

Add straps to rear of LCA to keep it from getting too loose. Tighten in a vise until adjuster still moves freely, then weld rear strap. Add two other straps as shown

 

[Dodgenut64]

Dont know if anyones mentioned this yet, but even though a v10 sounds like a cool swap, dropping in a new hemi and alterktion into your car would be cheaper and easier then a v10. The new hemi is lighter then the 273-360 la engines, and it only wieghs about 10lbs more then my old slant six. The altektion will also drop some weight off your front end as well. Im thinking if you want to go around corners the v10s weight will but you back up close to that of a big block over your front wheels. The 5.7 hemi swap would be way more easier then the v10 and the car would probably handle better with the 5.7.
I guess the v10 from the lastest viper has more horsepower, but the ones from 7 years ago, arent much more (if more at all) then the 6.1 hemi.

If you just want to take a car to the track, and have fun without killing your bank account then id follow autoxcudas advice, he seems to have alot of knowledge in auto cross racing old mopars.
I bought the alterktion because the 64 dart i bought was gonna need all new suspension and brakes anyway, and i saw how much easier my hemi swap would be using the Alterktion. Im not sure how the alterktion would perform on a autocross track, but there is a guy using one in his e-body. Bill might still have a pic of it on the RMS webpage.

 

[ramcharger]

Thank you autoxcuda!
This is great information for those who do not have the funds to purchase an AlterK. I also should have been more specific on what it was that I have so here's some more info:

'72 Duster that had a 318 from the factory so it has a v8 k frame. I will be using a 360 block too. I am also planning on using the tubular UCA and LCA from CAP automotive products: http://www.capautoproducts.com/Control_Arms.html A Wilwood disk brake conversion is also on the board.

Thanks again for your input.