Big Blocks and Handling

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Just got rear diff back. Ran into the green bearing/aftermarket axle/thrust block w/ cone type SG issue. Found out the ring gear/pinion (excellent shape), bearings, and pinion seal are all original 1971 lol. Got the wheel stud/lug nut issue sorted finally.

Will post again soon.
 
Jim Lusk said:
We looked at a few things and basically determined that none of it was necessary or even desireable considering the work involved. BUT, if I were to do this I would think about a B-body four speed so as not to move the shifter too far back. Lowering the motor kills ground clearance, especially on a car that has already been lowered. If you can't be happy with the level of handling we achieved than I would look at better shocks and rear springs first, then tires.
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I should have mentioned mine is not an A or a B..it is a '38 Chrysler. Big, deep perimeter frame with a beefy X-member. Previous owner put an SBC in it. I got to this site 'cause I was looking at putting a SBM in it, but when I looked at the dimensions it got me thinking a BB might fit better because of the dizzy to firewall issue. Right now with the SBC I ground off the top rear edge of the hei dist cap to get the engine as far back as possible, yet still have a fan/radiator clearance problem that has me running an electric pusher.

I figure if I'm going to have to make motor & tranny mounts maybe I can get myself an extra inch or two up front, and get a little better handling in the process.
 
UPDATE:

Thread is getting old but its taken me since Christmas to get everything squared away and get back on the road. Upon teardown I encountered a domino effect of issues that I had to address surounding the rear-end (axles, disk brake kit, thrust button, 35 year old bearings etc.)

Car handles great. Intstalled PST 1.08 TB's, Hotchkis leaf's, Edelbrock IAS shocks, PST sway bars front/rear (originally had none).

Test drive last night, but I didnt thrash it or go wingin' around corners yet. Need to double check all of the nuts and bolts on rear suspension before I get ahead of myself. Difference was night and day between the way it used to be and the way it handles now.

PST 1.08 sway bars did not seem rough to me.

Hotchkis leaf's seem great. They lowered the car a bit, even though I didnt use their forward hangers which would have made it even lower. Going to use longer rear hangers to raise it back up a bit. Car was already low, now its really low.

Will give the full corner skidding report this weekend.

SANY0116.jpg



Edit: Great weather Sunday, went on corner carving run towards Mt. Rainier. Handles fantastic and comfortable ride, would go another size larger on the torsion bars but the 1.08 TB's work very well! A lil oversteer prolly from extra 440 weight (needs alignment done too), handling is predictable and precise.
 
4woody said:
make some motor mounts a B/RB engine could move back
Anybody ever measured how much further back a BB can go compared to a SB?
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Never measured, but, forget the mounts, use elephant ears, now you center the motor and lower it, and move it back. .

You can either heat and hammer the firewall (of course after you remove all the burnables from the other side) that will net you another 1" on top of the 1.30" you can get with the elephant ears and lowering it, or cut the wall and add in, headers will either need to be made or modified if you opt to modify the wall and stuff it back 5", along with making your own oil pan.

Doing that. . .that is like going from a Ramcharger with no front bar in a corner to Daytona. . . .

Just getting the motor back is big.

Then you get schroeder or other torsion bars and torsion arms or sway arms and make your own front bar and attach it with hiems to the control arm. . .

At the rear make nylon bushings for the spring eyes and use a slider box, and toss the shackle. . . .

That'll also lower it and you'll lower the car some more. . .

After all that, go find some Ferrari or Porsche to chase into the corner and help push em off....

If you want more feel, make nylon bushings for the entire front suspension, or see my boy Bill Reilly http://www.reillymotorsports.com/
 
4woody said:
I know this is an old post, but I was just thinking about the engine setback issue.

Seems like if I am willing to make some motor mounts a B/RB engine could move back (and in my case down) maybe more than an inch once I get the dizzy from the back to the front of the engine. In my (SB) car the dizzy is the 1st thing to hit the firewall.

Anybody ever measured how much further back a BB can go compared to a SB?
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I know I have set them back 2 1/2 inchs.but that was with a motor plate going that far with wheel well headers you will have to trim of the brace that goes from the frame to the rocker no big deal..that far its also a pain to get the valve covers off.but 2 inchs. is farely easy...Artie sorry for not getting back to ya...
 
i just tried moving my 400 back in my duster since i had the towers cut off and had to make a custom transmoutn anyway. there wasnt much room with the tti headers they are tight to the steering box and if you move the motor back they hit the more you go back, the worse it gets. cant shift it over since the passenger side header is already close to the inner fender.
badshrimp is the rear bumper moulded on?
 
To see any real gain in rear weight percent you have to move the engine at least 5-6 inch's. You have to get the engine behind the upper ball joint center line to see any real gains. 1-2 inch's is only maybe worth a 1/4 to 1/2 percent. Way more work than whats its worth.
 
Really you want it 5" past the upper ball joint, by past, i mean the block is 5" past the upper ball joint after the caster is laid back.

The elephant ears are much easier for mounting the motor, and dropping it down, another piece of info is pointing the motor down a few degrees helps with off the corner accel
The 5" behind the ball joint is a little bit of work, but if you like to road race you'll be into hammering exotic cars at that point
 
Supershafts said:
Really you want it 5" past the upper ball joint, by past, i mean the block is 5" past the upper ball joint after the caster is laid back.

Modified's are set back farther than that , but they are a whole different type of race car. No, I meant moved from stock location. Most rules for street stock class say #1 plug in line with upper ball joint center line. My Dart sport I can move the engine back 5 1/2 inch's to stay within the rule. But I never did cause I can only have 50% rear weight anyway. Besides moving the fire wall you would have to use a rear sump oil pan and make your own headers. At the race shop I used to work at we did mock up with a stock framed car on a set of scales. Moving the engine 1-2 inch's you gain almost nothing for rear %. You have to get back past the BJ centerline to see any real gains. That's why the old super stocks moved the front axle center line forward, much easyer to do...
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He's not building a car to be within oval class rules though, no rules to build a better handling car and go out against the local bought super cars on the road course and hammer them.

Believe it or not, the 2" will help as will lowering the motor in the car, pointing the front down, and lowering the car.
 
I road race my Dart for fun and it handles(.Definetly not suckin hind tit) I can't keep up with the new vettes but really nobody can! (incredibly fast) 3100lbs
Fiberglass hood really helps and suspension mods along w Big brakes. Lots of AL motor parts battery in trunk
Sliders on the HD leafs and coil over shocks big meats and lots HP and torque. I run 20 min sesions at 3500RPM to 6000RPM 6500RPM depending on track.
Motor hasnt blown up yet but season is young
 
Tooslow, if you had every advantage the new vette has besides engine, like a beautiful computer engine managed FI system, how many speed trans???? etc....

Yea, it'd be a different story. But 40 year old iron compared to new car.... tuff act to keep up on for sure!
 
Sure is Fun Though! and a super adrenlin rush.
I need a Tremic Manual trans but to pricey right now and im not not a good driver yet??
Takes alot of practice
I got to say the road race clubs are a friendly bunchso far If your a paying customer they are glad to have you.
All the Corvette and exotic car dudes have been real friendly
Store bought or not it takes major cahoney's to drive a car as fast as some guy's do for 20 minutes
 
8 3/4 axle tip
The green bearings won't hold up to hard core serious high speed cornering. Ya, you can change them often but??? Green Bearings are designed for radial loads
MARK WILLIAMS is the answer. They sell weld on axle ends that will hold a decent roller bearing set-up
 
I'm glad this thread is still going strong. My bike is just about done (for now), so it's getting to be about that time. I had the 400 block sonic checked and it's under wraps right now. Duster is on dollies so I'm running out of excuses. Time to pull the mouse infested 360 and start on frame/rollcage/suspension work.

Thank you everyone for your input and great looking ride Bad Shrimp!

BTW, it's been my impression from reading various posts that fenderwell headers will seriously limit front tire size and turning radius. True?

Next question, I will be running elephant ears (motor plate) on this build. It appears that there seems to be some disagreement regarding the worth of setting the engine back. I'm under the impression that without making custom headers, I can only go back about an inch and it seems that some of you feel it's not worth it. True?

Thanks again all!
 
Along with the standard frame connectors i added a 6 point welded cage and tied it in to the front shock towers. This was huge and not to ugly if you pick the right WELD IN kit
 
Stock they plow like pigs, Any mod that lightens or helps suspension geometry is a good thing.
 
efriedrich said:
Stock they plow like pigs, Any mod that lightens or helps suspension geometry is a good thing.
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Actually, this is not quite correct. The main reasons the stock suspension SUCKED in the 60s were the available tires and shocks. To truly carve canyons requires a bit of an upgrade, but I have attained more than adequate handling with stock big block torsion bars and sway bar with no lightening or changing geometry.
 
Jim Lusk said:
Actually, this is not quite correct. The main reasons the stock suspension SUCKED in the 60s were the available tires and shocks. To truly carve canyons requires a bit of an upgrade, but I have attained more than adequate handling with stock big block torsion bars and sway bar with no lightening or changing geometry.
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MY CAR ROCKS IN THE TWISTIES

I get a lotta crap because I am running a BB at the Road Race Tracks "why dont you build a smallblock instead of that boat anchor" I am far from a genoius or a speller but
AL heads
AL front engine parts
AL manifold
Headers
Bat in the trunk
FIBERGLASS HOOD
FIBERGLASS FENDERS
AL Radiator
BIG TORSION BARS

MAN THAT BIG BLOCK IS REALLY WEIGHING IT DOWN --LOL
MY CAR HANDLES PRETTY GOOD
I heard once of something called a 426 HEMI in the old days that DOMINATED NASCAR. (when NASCAR was still NASCAR):blob:

my .02
 
if you put the big block on a weight diet, like aluminum heads , intake, and headers, you can shed a lot of weight and be about the same as a stock small block....
 
Mine handles just fine with the 440. If it tends to push in the corners, I just stab the gas pedal and walk the rear a bit! Works every time!! Lol!
 
The first Hemi Duster that HemiDenny built had an iron block 472 but had aluminum
heads, intake, water pump and housing and lightweight tube headers; also, the battery
was in the trunk.

Originally he bought and installed 440 Dart torsion bars. Way to stiff. Ended up with
318 bars. Road and handled the way it should.

I've heard that a big-block or Hemi with aluminum heads and accessories only weighs
17 lbs more than a stock small block with cast iron exhaust manifolds. I don't doubt
that. I've also heard that the slant 6 weighs a bit more than the small block.
 
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