Big smallblock power..Turbo?

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MadScientistMat said:
I've seen carbs used with turbos too. Tried it on my Dart, but the used carb I started with had issues. I've found EFI fuel mapping to be a bit easier than getting the correct air/fuel ratio out of a carb under both boost and cruise. With EFI you can change the mapping on a running engine at full throttle, make data logs of the air/fuel ratios and sensor readings, and have a lot of other tools that are trickier to apply to a carb. It is a bit more learning involved than basic carb jetting, but simpler than trying to figure out some of the details of how a carb could be optimized to work under boost.
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Hey Matt, i agree that efi would be the way to go, but blow through would be the cheapest way for me, plus even if it is a bit harder than efi to tune and such, it can still be done and there is a ton of good info on that stuff all over the net...Are you over on the turbo forums with that slant of yours?
 
Yes, I'm there - I post as Matt Cramer.

From what I've heard, most of the blow through setups tend to run a bit rich at part throttle. You can get an engine to run at a very wide range of air/fuel ratios. Getting a blow through carb to work is doable, getting it to control the fuel as well as EFI is a lot harder.
 
I suggest you start with educating yourself. The absolute best book out there for scratch building a turbo system has to be Maximum Boost by Corky Bell. It's not overly in depth on theory and is clearly written.

Prine is right,it's actually safe to run a turbo on a cast bottom end. buy Corky's book,read it and you'll understand why.

Amazon has em here.

http://www.amazon.ca/dp/0837601606/?tag=joeychgo-20

Now,Im not trying to pump Amazon but you can get free shipping in the deal if the order qualifies.
 
The one gap with Maximum Boost is that the carb chapter is quite limited. The most detailed chapter I've seen on turbos with carbs is Hugh MacInness's Turbochargers.
 
hey guys ive heard of the corky bell book before and have heard from many that it is a real good read...but I am most interested in blow through setups...Is the Hugh MacInness book a good read as well? or is only the carb section good? my biggest difficulty in understanding everything is trying to actually pick a turbo(s) that i would use...theres so much math involved (which i have always really sucked at)
 
Sorry I'm late to the party. :-D

mshred, i'm not sure if you have looked through this yet or not.
http://www.turbomustangs.com/turbotech/main.htm

Here are a couple more links for you to chew on.
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/tech_center.html

http://theturboforumswiki.serveftp....dex.php/Compressor_Size_to_Power_Relationship

As you have read in my build threads this is my first go at doing this, but keep an eye on them and maybe learn from my mistakes.

The current mistake i'm still debating over fixing or just running with it is the exhaust housing size. I went with a .68 thinking it would be a great for the street, what I didn't think about was the running rpm going down the freeway and being in boost. So now i'm contemplating switching it out for the .96 which will shift everything up in the rpm range so I should be able to do 70 and not be in boost.

Read, read and do some more reading. There is lots of info out there and you will start answering a lot of your own questions.
Turbomustangs is a great place to look at builds and get all the info you need, make sure you use the search button.

Its crazy how much math and tid bits of knowledge you need to design, install and tune a turbo vehicle.
 
Prine said:
I personally think its a great idea....I would use a good ole' low compression 318 as the initial foundation (I wouldn't even crack the valve covers/Oil Pan off) and later build a special 360 to shoehorn into the ready to go Turbo System Engine Bay.

At 14.7 psi, a turbo can DOUBLE the Hp/Tq, the same Naturally Aspirated engine made....so figure it like this...300 crank horsepower can be doubled to 600 crank horsepower with boost....its relatively safe...run good fuel and always make sure your Wastegate is dialed in, and I hear of people running big numbers on stock Cast Piston/Crank bottom ends all the time.

I say DO IT!

Good Luck.
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Great minds think alike. I have a 360 out of a 1990 Ramcharger waiting in the corner. :-D

Here is my actual build thread in the builds area over there.

http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=121494.0
 
I recommend sticking with a Single Turbo concept...purely on the basis that it is simpler, more effecient and is easier to package.

With that, my turbo recommendations are:

Garrett GT35 with .85 A/R exhaust housing
or
Precision Turbo SC6152, with .96 A/R housing

with
40mm Wastegate with 10 psi spring
&
1990-1994 Eagle Talon Blow Off Valve

Both of my recommendations are 650-750 hp capable, and will do 40-45 lb/min with relative ease at 14-18 psi of boost.

Both would have a boost threshold of about 3000-3500 rpm.

On another note...you can use regular street gears in the range of 2.94 to 3.55 to help load the turbo up...once turbocharged the torque is tremendous and WILL PULL highway gears like it has 4.10's...so don't go jumping off and getting a 3.91 or 4.10 gear set right away.

I am a big fan of AnotherA's turbo build and wish I had the funds to do something exactly like that (except the .68 housing thing 8))

I wish you good luck.
 
If I need to upgrade depending on how wild I go with the 360, I will probably go with an S400.
 
will DRAIN YOUR WALLET IN 11.00 seconds flat.

Once again a stock 340 is a BAD *** street motor for anyone and will get you speeding tickets in 11.00 seconds or less.

Read closer hosers......didn't say a stock 340 would run an 11.00 in a 1/4 mile.

Read closer......b4 you make a slam.......you silly canuks.
 
Daddgumm MoMoparman, take it easy on the guy...its all hypothetical at this point.

He is trying to figure if its feasible for his goals...
 
WOw man your friend has a nice setup going on there...can you tell me more about it? (Is it blow thru, what turbos, forged internals, etc.)..and yes my car will be almost daily driven when the weather is nice as in its my car to get me everywhere unless id rather drive my beater lol
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Not blow through - injected. He's a Daimler mechanic so tuning EFI is pretty much a common deal for him.

If you go blow thru - don't use a Carter - they are too susceptible to distubed air flow.

The biggest work was the fabrication of the manifolds, plenum and intercooler.

318 block, 7.8:1 comp, Eagle rods, KB Hyper slugs, 360 heads


.525 lift solid Cam.


Twin Master Power TO4 Turbos running 3 stages of boost; 7 /15 / 21 PSI.


Twin carter electric fuel pumps- .5" line


Home Fabricated EFI plenum mounted on a Weiand Tunnel ram base intake with Bosche injectors.


Contoller is a Wolf 3D computer with a Crane Hi Six ignition


The 3rd member is a Ford 9” using a Strange Full spool with 31 spline axles.


Traction is managed by a Pinion snubber, reversed spring hangers and Caltrac style bars


Stoppers are BA Ford front callipers with 12” rotors with a Rack and Pinion front end conversion.


Trans is a 727 with a 2800 stall.
 
Hey anotherA and Prine, thanks for the links and recommendations...and moparmal, thanks for the info on your buddys setup- what kinda car does he have it in? this whole turbo thing is still very new to me and i appreciate you guys pointing me in the right direction...I have a lot of research ahead of me and rest assured i will definatly be following anotherA's buildup...as far Momoparman, this canuck right here would really love to shove his hockey stick up your american a$*.
 
The Bell and MacInness books are slightly different territory.

The MacInness book is a very out of date book, many of the turbos mentioned in it are no longer in production, but it has very solid math and a very interesting look into old school turbo tricks for someone who wants to set up a turbo without electronics. It's about the only printed guide that really covers carbs and mechanical advance mechanisms when dealing with turbos, and it has a treasure trove of really interesting old school turbo race engines. In some ways, it's gloriously outdated, like a set of old Hot Rod magazines would be to somebody building a period correct roadster.

Corky really knows his turbos and has built some very impressive turbo cars (disclaimer: The company I work for has ties to his Bell Experimental Group company and runs one of his kits on one of our demonstration cars. We've been very impressed with their kit; it resulted in a Miata that put more power to the ground than several of our V8 project cars have.). His book is opinionated but fun to read and has a lot of very useful formulas, illustrations, and practical tips. It's got a lot of theory but in some ways has a bit more of a practical bent. It's also a bit more aimed at modern cars, though it has some interesting vintage engines as well. There's a lot more about EFI in it, which is really absent from the other book.
 
MadScientistMat said:
The Bell and MacInness books are slightly different territory.

The MacInness book is a very out of date book, many of the turbos mentioned in it are no longer in production, but it has very solid math and a very interesting look into old school turbo tricks for someone who wants to set up a turbo without electronics. It's about the only printed guide that really covers carbs and mechanical advance mechanisms when dealing with turbos, and it has a treasure trove of really interesting old school turbo race engines. In some ways, it's gloriously outdated, like a set of old Hot Rod magazines would be to somebody building a period correct roadster.

Corky really knows his turbos and has built some very impressive turbo cars (disclaimer: The company I work for has ties to his Bell Experimental Group company and runs one of his kits on one of our demonstration cars. We've been very impressed with their kit; it resulted in a Miata that put more power to the ground than several of our V8 project cars have.). His book is opinionated but fun to read and has a lot of very useful formulas, illustrations, and practical tips. It's got a lot of theory but in some ways has a bit more of a practical bent. It's also a bit more aimed at modern cars, though it has some interesting vintage engines as well. There's a lot more about EFI in it, which is really absent from the other book.
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Thanks for the info on the books...I will keep that in mind if i decide to order either one of them...for now im going to try to find as much info as a i need on the turboforums and go from there
 
"as far Momoparman, this canuck right here would really love to shove his hockey stick up your american a$*."

Whoa.......lots of big talk from a tweenager......I hear you suck at hockey and couldn't find the net if it was draped over your head so I'm not concerned aboot your skills (lack of) with your hockey stick.

Why don't you just shove that Hockey stick up your own portal and make yourself look like a silly Canucksicle.

FO and your welcome for your country's freedom and thanks for allowing terrorists to have safe harbor in your country.....we AMERICANS thank you for your fence walking attitude and lack of commitment towards fighting off the scourge of this world.

Must be embarrasing to know that Venezuela has a larger military force than yours does.
 
momoparman said:
"as far Momoparman, this canuck right here would really love to shove his hockey stick up your american a$*."

Whoa.......lots of big talk from a tweenager......I hear you suck at hockey and couldn't find the net if it was draped over your head so I'm not concerned aboot your skills (lack of) with your hockey stick.

Why don't you just shove that Hockey stick up your own portal and make yourself look like a silly Canucksicle.

FO and your welcome for your country's freedom and thanks for allowing terrorists to have safe harbor in your country.....we AMERICANS thank you for your fence walking attitude and lack of commitment towards fighting off the scourge of this world.

Must be embarrasing to know that Venezuela has a larger military force than yours does.
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For some reason you seem to have a problem with my age and my country...first off, age is not an indicator of anything, especially since your last post just proved how freakin immature you are and your probably old enough to be farting dust all over your pimped out cuda...and then to slander my country? like i said before id love to shove a stick up your ***, but it seems like you already have one shoved up there, so ill give you the chance to take it out first...this isnt the politics forum, and i dont intend to turn it into that, so stop bitching and blaming my country for your own country's problems...if you have anything to say to this, it will probably make you look stupider than you already have, and by the way you also insulted anyone from venezuela as well...remember you started the whole thing about canadians and country of origin in this thread, not me (and ive seen you do it in others as well) so if you cant get along because im canadian and have nothing good to say, then dont say anything at all...I may be a tweenager (though i dont think you even know how old i am) but that doesnt mean i dont have the balls or brains to tell some cocky cranky american to shut it:thebirdm: I love americans like you- for some reason you love to joke about canadians so much with "canuck" this and "aboot" that as though we are some funny type of people because we are not "american"...its americans like you that i cant stop laughing at...now go backpacking in cuba with your flag on your back! LMAO
 
wow...lol. That's pretty good Mshred...lol. Backpacking in Cuba...
 
moper said:
wow...lol. That's pretty good Mshred...lol. Backpacking in Cuba...
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well i couldnt help it...i think anyone reading what this guy has wrote will agree that he is bringing up needless country bashing...if i wanted to be a real ahole id post up what he said in the Canadian section...i dont think any of us "canuckks" would like him then...oh and I am Canadian and proud by the way guys:cheers: just thought id let everyone know
 
MShred. I think you are wrong here. Momoparman commented on your original post, where you were talking about a naturally aspriated build, and turbo build, in the same sentence. He went off on a tangent about a stock 340, which is apparently not of interest to you. Had you politely declined the interst in a stock 340 versus a stroked HP build, or ignored his input you would have shown maturity beyond your years, but you did not. Had you ignored his inappropriate Canadian jabs, you would have also shown yourself to be a class above, but you got drawn in. Make no mistake, you started the aggressive negativity talking about hockey sticks up the keister.

Momoparman. I think you are wrong here too. You may have misread the initial post about turbo versus stoker naturally aspriated. Yet, once it was pointed out that a stock 340 was not what he wanted you persisted with more posts on stock 340. Your "cannucks" and "eh" stuff may have been humorous to you, but not to him. You tried to keep it in "fun" but added your canadian jabs at the same time. The politics you launched are not going to do anything at this point, but inflame the situation. Once in a fight, do you really think that your "patriotism" crap is going to make him back down? One of the reasons the US is under attack is the perception of our arrogance. I wonder where the other countries get that idea...EH?
 
I think a good custom turbo setup could be applied to a fuel injected 318 or 360. Even if you need to have custom fabricated tubular headers made, I would think it might not be too much different that going the full-blown normally aspirated route, cost-wise......especially when you consider what you'll pay for a roller cam and some killer heads to get you into the 11's.

My belief is that hot normally aspirated motors are nice, just expensive, the only problem is.....they can never compete with a turbo. Just make sure your fuel system is bulletproof.
 
cudavert said:
My belief is that hot normally aspirated motors are nice, just expensive, the only problem is.....they can never compete with a turbo. Just make sure your fuel system is bulletproof.
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The turbo route is definitely more expensive because of the fuel system and all associated turbo parts.
I could have had a built 360 for what I have into my system right now.

From what I understand turbo motors are actually easier on the parts also. Your not running super strong springs for a radical cam or winding the motor to 7,500rpm to get the high hp.

And if you get bored with 500hp get a boost controller and add a few PSI.
 
The fule system definately is the cost killer on many turbo systems. There are lower cost options, in using the non braided hose that is offered by Aeroquip and others. Fittings are expensive
 
Let me throw this out there.....my 19 y.o. son has a '98 Nissan 240SX that has over 80,000 miles on the 2.4 liter stock motor. He went on Ebay and purchased a BRAND NEW made in China turbo (T3~T4 hybrid copy), a NEW stainless tubular exhaust manifold, and a NEW wastegate for.......$425.00!!! I warned him of the potential short lifespan/poor quality issue, but he claimed that he'd heard good things from others about these turbos. He also bought a giant intercooler for $250 for it too.

Now, before ya'll start screaming that you're not putting that made-in-China crap on your motor........my point is: he slapped this setup on a 9.5 to 1 high-mileage motor with cast pistons and has had NO problems whatsoever!!.....and it's been close to 2 years running 9 lbs. of boost (he ran 15 lbs. for a while) Not even any oil burning or leaking. And he turned a 13.75 @ 105 MPH in the quarter mile, and dyno'd it @ 275 RWHP!

He's probably got about $2K~$2.5K in the entire setup, and over $1,500 in just the ECM/new injectors. The bigger injectors are NISMO 555cc, ($$) and a Jim Wolfe Racing ECM that had a specifically burned chip for his engine/H.P. choice (300 H.P.)

I'm just saying that I think it's do-able on a limited budget......sure, you're not gonna have the best wastegates, blow-off valves and you'll have to fab up all your own stuff, but I think it's do-able.
 
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