famous bob
mopar misfit
My experiance is that they will run a little cooler after the rings seat , mine took a while to seat !
Blueprint 408 cooling system questions.
- Thread starter Moparmadness408
- Start date
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My experiance is that they will run a little cooler after the rings seat , mine took a while to seat !
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
they usually take minutes to seat.
That said, the garbage the OP was told was a crock
famous bob
mopar misfit
Mine have always taken longer for some reason . Maybe rings and crosshatch off a little -------???
Head plate and decked , this engine even has gapless rings and still took a long time ---
B3422w5
Well-Known Member
it doesnt matter. This thread is about a guy being told his motor is supposed to run hot when new, and then will cool off 30 degrees when broken in.
I cant in my wildest thoughts believe you could call a company and they would honestly give you as a customer such drivel...its not remotely true.
Its a crock of poop. You know it and i know it
famous bob
mopar misfit
I'm sure there is some context lost in there. What is true is people continually don't dial in enough ignition timing during cam break in, and rings seating does help. I imagine that's what was being relayed.
Lots of good advice in the comments relating to timing, fans, etc. I gave a long post about things to check, and didn't see it responded it. Heavy springs in the dist is a problem. As well as dieseling. Thats fuel/timing. Noone wants him blindly throwing parts at it, but clearly have issues to work through.
@Moparmadness408 Was this purchased as a turn key engine? Carb and intake on it? Or longblock only?
How many miles are on it?
BluePrint engines is always happy to help customers. I will again openly state you are welcome to contact me directly.
famous bob
mopar misfit
Gotta agree, it is a little extreme ------
There’s many ways of looking at a situation like this. The way I see it, If your the sort that buys essentially a bolt-in engine and add your own peripheral related parts and then have a problem the first reaction is to blame the engine assembly, and reach out to them for answers and defend your part of the equation....as in: “it just can’t be what I’ve done”! I’ve seen it countless times. On the other hand if you did all the work yourself assembling things you’re going to likely be giving thought to everything related to what YOU did. This particular issue is not because of the engine block cooling cavities being blocked or scaled up, the head gaskets being incorrect, or blocking any passages to the head, or the head having any of the same issues that a block could have. It’s the peripheral things that an end user has control over. Sorry, but that statement gets a “Period” . It ain’t the engine, it’s what an end user (applies to all not just the OP) has or hasn’t done, either by overlooking, wrong parts used, tuning, not considering everything as you would if you built and assemble start to finish.
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B3422w5
Well-Known Member
Agree with all of that. So why tell a customer having such problems that its “ typical” to run into issues where the motor will run 210-220 degrees when new, and after its “ broken in” it should run 180.
I have never had such an issue, have you?
That is a terrible piece of advice to give a customer when he calls a tech line and is given the above as an answer regards his new engine purchase
Did you even read what the OP said he was told when he called? That is what i have issue with.
If true, there is absolutely zero truth to anything the guy was told.
I took the OP at face value that he was told what he was told.
Yes I read it, on the surface I agree with what you’re stating completely but being the sort that I am I guess I’m too forgiving or understanding of what was possibly said by the company. They could have said what is being alleged by the OP, and certainly that’s not a good answer to the guys concern. We don’t know whom he talked to, but it sounds like it was a general answer from a sheet someone answering cooling questions uses in hopes it would allay a customers issues/worries, in hopes he’d give it a little more time? Who knows? Obviously could have been handled better but who’s to say? On the other hand we read of customer service where they have a knee jerk reaction and tell you it’s not their product, it’s gotta be something the end user did or didn’t do? We’ve all read of those ones here. I couldn’t do customer service. Too hard to walk that line and deal with customers. Not to mention some you just can’t reason with. And I don’t call for help. I figure it out for myself. Maybe BP hasn’t been contacted with the right person on the line to properly help the guy in a methodical way, I wouldn’t expect them to do anything other than answer the phone and help, and return calls. But as the OP doesn’t appear to live on this forum maybe it’s a safe assumption that he is busy with other things and hasn’t been more engaged to get to the bottom of it with them. See that all the time too.
Johnny Dart
Well-Known Member
Without reading all 3 pages, not sure if the water pump ever came up in the discussion.
What water pumps is Blueprint uses on their motors ?
Notice the numbers of vanes.
What water pumps is Blueprint uses on their motors ?
Notice the numbers of vanes.
Johnny Dart
Well-Known Member
Having said that, these are my go to water pumps.
Flowkooler best $100 you will spend.
Flowkooler best $100 you will spend.
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yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
That’s a FACT. Way too many guys are afraid of timing, so they retard the **** out of thinking they are going the right direction when all they do is run the EGT off the map and kill parts.
It’s 2021. The rings should be seated when it starts. The days of making 10-12 dyno pulls before the rings seat and the power settles down we’re over in the early 1990’s.
If the rings aren’t “seated” in a minute or two, you might as well pull it down and fix it. Because they will never seal correctly.
All this info is on the web. Ring manufacturers, oil builders, hone manufacturers all go out of their way to get this information to the public so the guys who spend their money on this stuff are educated in their buying decisions.
If your engine builder tells you to break the engine in for *** miles, find a new builder.
Ring materiel and design are light years ahead of where they were even 20 short years ago. Hone technique, hone geometry and bore surface finish is critical to ring seal. If your engine builder isn’t using a profilometer and writing down the Rk, RpK and RvK numbers, then you should question how in the hell he knows what he has.
Application dictates bore finish. Even the fuel you use can change the bore finish and the geometry.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Neither of the two pumps pictured are high flow pumps.
If you are going to underdrive the water pump (bad idea) then you need 8 find. If you are going to overdrive the pump (the right way to do it) you can use 6 fins.
The number of fins is less important when the pup speed is correct and the fins are closed off with a plate OR you mill the timing cover until the fins just touch the cover and then use the gasket to set the clearance between the fins and the cover.
Johnny Dart
Well-Known Member
Not so fast.
Not sure where underdriving the water pump came up ?
That wasn't where I was going with this.
The 6 vane pump is actually an AC pump, which uses a smaller AC pulley.
The 8 vane pump is a Non-AC pump, which uses a bigger Non-AC pulley.
The problem is running an AC 6 vane water pump, on a
Non-AC car. Parts suppliers sell them all the time, and unsuspecting people just bolt them on. Less flow and hotter temps will result from doing this.
That's why I brought this question up.
What pump is on the motor ?
Maybe BP didn't supply the WP ?
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yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
I wasn’t suggesting what the OP has, or doesn’t have for a water pump.
I brought up pump speed because it’s damned hard to find overdriven water pump pulleys in the aftermarket, and guys love that shiny ****.
I’m only at 3% over, and I’d rather be at 18% over. March Performance wants a 100 bucks per pulley with a 15 minimum order to build a water pump pulley that is 18% over their crank pulley.
I’m considering doing it, but I’d use one pulley, my buddy one pulley and I’d be sitting on 13 pulleys.
Convincing guys that water pump speed is critical and that saving a few HP under driving the pump will cost way more HP in not controlling engine temp.
Any decent street performance engine should never see the high side of 180, except maybe at stop lights and such, and 160 is better. You can’t get much lower and still have a defrost.
The leakage around the fins is a bigger deal than how many fins you have. There is a reason why Milodon only uses 6 fins on their pumps. IIRC, part of it has to do with RPM and cavitation. I may be wrong on that, because it’s been so long since I discussed it with them.
Johnny Dart
Well-Known Member
Exactly what I stated.
If engine cooling is a problem, the 70-73 non-AC pump should be used.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
I agree, IF the fins don’t have a plate on them or you have moved the pump so the fins are very close to the cover.
I found a video a while go (probably 2013 now that I think about it) that showed the coolant doing off the fins with nothing behind them. They made a ton of bubbles and the coolant would actually stall around the fins.
I’ll see if I can find it and post it.
Look at the Flowkooler pumps. They have more fins, but they have a completely different shape.
Now that I’m thinking about all this stuff, I remember that just like an oil pump with a gerotor rather than spur gears like a cheap assed chevy pump will produce more oil flow for the same size as a gear pump, but it’s output isn’t as smooth.
And, the inlet side of the pump is more critical with a gerotor pump. As the RPM goes up, the inlet side of the pump has to get bigger.
What Chrysler was suggesting was correct in that they wanted more flow, sooner. I suggest the 6 fins will do the same, or more if you control the leakage around the fins. And you keep the pump speeds up.
I'm guessing it was sold as a longblock without intake, carb, distributor, etc. Makes it hard to help diagnose issues when it's not our equipment on the engine.
Op doesn't seem very active on here either.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
I’m not disagreeing. I’m saying if you spend all that money on an engine and you want to run a 30 dollar pump, then you need 8 fins.
If you actually spend the 120 rubles or whatever a Milodon or Flowkooler costs, then fin count means nothing.
Johnny Dart
Well-Known Member
I get it, were good.
What I'm saying, unless your car is an AC car, make sure you have the 8 vane pump.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
The information on that whole page is important.
The 8 blade takes less power to turn. And then it says it’s about 10 HP at 7000 RPM. I can guarantee that that 10 HP is nothing compared to the HP loss from 160 degrees to 195 degrees, plus the fact that those high coolant temps make the engine much more sensitive to detonation so you can’t run as much compression (power and efficiency loss) and you can’t run as aggressive cam timing or you will be into detonation.
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famous bob
mopar misfit
Agree with most all except the 160 degree part , with a tall unheated intake , mine wont even run right untill it hits 185-190-----------
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