brake issues, help me get my car driving

[GEO]

I didn't see mention of a proportion valve. I don't know if having or not would be a factor either.
I have seen a whole bunch of master cylinders die during the bench bleeding process.
They'll get stroked several times as fast and much farther at the vise than they ever would in normal service. That isn't the way it should be done.
I don't know that's the case here either. Another master cylinder is the next thing I would try.

I've never had a master cylinder get damaged from a bench bleed , again in 30+ years of doing brakes

 

[GEO]

So your basically saying I could have killed my
Master by bench bleeding it ? Ok . Well I don't know what tht brass block is called that the lines from the master run to , distribution block or junction block whatever it's called . My whole thing was . Were they different for drum cars and disk brake cars ???

Disc and drum take different ones , I just bought an adjustable proportioning valve and installed it in the steel line going to the rear brakes.

I put mine where it was easy to get to and wouldn't get damaged if the car bottomed out.

Jegs and summit both carry them

 

[yeah]

That's what I did also , always pushed to the floor . Either way . I'm still stumped on what's wrong with my brakes . I guess besides maybe my master being dead. Any other ideas where I could look to figure this out . Again does anybody know if the brass sdistribution block is the same for drum brakes and disk brakes . My car was drum on all corners and now is disk ???? Also is there a posibility I maybe routed the brake lines wrong ???? Just a though .

 

[GEO]

That's what I did also , always pushed to the floor . Either way . I'm still stumped on what's wrong with my brakes . I guess besides maybe my master being dead. Any other ideas where I could look to figure this out . Again does anybody know if the brass sdistribution block is the same for drum brakes and disk brakes . My car was drum on all corners and now is disk ???? Also is there a posibility I maybe routed the brake lines wrong ???? Just a though .

I think your master cylinders fine ,

I bleed mine with the return line method that most places include in the master cylinder boxes not the brass plug type.

Both on the bench and installed on the car

If they could be damaged bench bleeding by the return line method I'm sure all the parts stores wouldn't include them with the mastercylinders , otherwise they would be getting them all back for warranty

 

[yeah]

Sorry , I missed some posts . Well Im talking about the stock brass junction block . Two lines run from the master then the rest run to the other brake lines . Are they different for drum and disk cars ?? Cause I reused mine and it was from my car when it had all drums .

 

[KitCarlson]

The idea is to have pressure during the bleed, shutting the bleed valve early, insures that. Bleeding to stop, may result in entered air if delay in closing valve.

A master cylinder has a thick rubber washer as piston stop, I agree no damage done.

 

[yeah]

Ok guys so there is way to much arguing over Which way is the good way to bleed a master cylinder haha.

I'll just ask this, again cause I really didn't get a answer.

1. Does the stock brass junction block that all the brake lines connect too, differ from a drum car to a disk car ??

2.is the 1 1/16 bore master cylinder good enough for disks all around ?

3. Is there a way I could have routed the lines from the master to the junction and then from the junction to all the calipers wrong?

4. How do you know if your brake pedal/ mc pushrod is property adjusted ?

If somebody could answer these questions it would be greatly appreciated , and I would stop bugging you guys hahah .

Thanks guys
Peter.

 

[GEO]

I'm still using the stock 4 wheel drum valve on my car , it now has front discs and large 11in rear drums.

I did put an adjustable proporting valve in the line to the back brakes to limit their pressure.

Stops great like a lot newer car

 

[Swinger4me]

Take a look at the push rod where it connects to the pedal. It should be as close to level as possible. If the rod is mounted at an angle it decreases the pedal resistance. You might need to drill a new mounting hole in the pedal arm.

 

[PA Dodger]

Ok guys so there is way to much arguing over Which way is the good way to bleed a master cylinder haha.

I'll just ask this, again cause I really didn't get a answer.

1. Does the stock brass junction block that all the brake lines connect too, differ from a drum car to a disk car ??

2.is the 1 1/16 bore master cylinder good enough for disks all around ?

3. Is there a way I could have routed the lines from the master to the junction and then from the junction to all the calipers wrong?

4. How do you know if your brake pedal/ mc pushrod is property adjusted ?

If somebody could answer these questions it would be greatly appreciated , and I would stop bugging you guys hahah .

Thanks guys
Peter.

I'll start by saying I haven't done 10,000 brake jobs and am not an expert in the field, but I have done brake swaps on all my cars. But I think I see a few hiccups in your brake setup.

1) There is a different factory distribution block for drum/drum and disc/drum cars. I'm not sure what the primary difference is though. Since you have disc/disc,your setup is neither of these blocks. I think you would be better off with a an adjustable Wilwood distribution block. That way, once you get your problem figured out you can tweek it to get the best braking.
2) You need to contact Wilwood with your brake specs. I was thinking that depending on your total caliper piston area for all 10 pistons you may be taxing the MC capacity.
3) If you used the factory lines it would be near impossible. The fitting sizes are different and the lines are bent in such a way that it would be hard to mix them up. I think the only place to screw it up would be switching the lines at the master cylinder.
4) Are you using an adjustable pushrod? You used a 4 bolt to 2 bolt adapter plate to mount the Wilwood MC, right? On my brake pedal I have just a little travel if I pull it back against the brake switch, and brakes pretty much the whole way forward until the pedal stops about 2+" from the floor. The adapter plate may be putting you closer to the floor before you even hit the brakes.

I know from doing a lot of research, people have a lot of issues with Right Stuff disc brake swaps. Many have taken them off and swapped to something else. But I read a post a while back where someone took the time to investigate and found that it's all about getting your line pressures right.

 

[william]

have someone pump the brakes while you watch the caliper piston travel to see how far the piston travel,I've seen brake pads that are not flat pushing the piston back into the caliper causing a low soft pedal.
Are the caliper a low drag type if so a quick take up master will be needed.
You could also try residual valves http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/wireprva.html

 

[BillGrissom]

Since you do get a stiff pedal before bottoming out, I would try driving the car in a parking lot and braking a lot. I assume you have an e-brake on your rear disks for backup stopping. With rear drums, I usually have a soft pedal until I back up and brake hard a bunch of times to let the self-adjusters work. With disks, the pads don't perfectly match the rotors at first so may "tilt in" as they contact, which could give a spongy pedal. After a little braking, they wear to match perfectly fairly soon.

 

[67Dart273]

1. Does the stock brass junction block that all the brake lines connect too, differ from a drum car to a disk car ??.

Yes. The all drum block has a piston operated switch inside that activates the warning switch. In effect, "one end" is a junction point for the front end lines, the other end of the device is a junction point for the rear lines of the car. The factory front disc is a prop valve as well as a warning switch. Here:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=189489

The top photo in this thread is an all drum warning switch / junction block

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=134889

2.is the 1 1/16 bore master cylinder good enough for disks all around ?r.

Not sure of the bore. I'm using the original unboosted factory all drum master on my 67 for front 73 / 74 Duster disks, and rear Versailles disks. All I did was to rupture the residual valves in the master. Mine worked out well. Make sure if yours was originally a drum master, that you remove or rupture the residual valves. I would simply try it in regards to pedal stroke and pressure. I'd estimate I get about 1/3 of a pedal stroke, no more, and a "rock solid" pedal. Not long after I got the conversion done, I "got a chance" to try them out when someone ran a stop sign. I'm 65 with arthritis problems. Man I tromped that pedal, and slid that thing to a stop from about 32 MPH like you can't believe!!!

3. Is there a way I could have routed the lines from the master to the junction and then from the junction to all the calipers wrong?.

Not sure, but I'd say yes. Who knows, you might have crossed up a front with a rear, or some dammed thing.

4. How do you know if your brake pedal/ mc pushrod is property adjusted ?

This "should" be easy. You need to be able to establish mechanical play between the rod / pedal linkage and the master piston. If the piston does not fully return all the way to the rear, it will not expose the transfer ports between the cylinder bore and the reservoir(s) and will either lose prime, or will lock up and heat up the brakes.

 

[yeah]

Wow . Hey guys. Thanks so much for the valuable information . Sorry that didint respond but I have not been on here in a while . Had to leave out of country . But now I know what to look at and figure out my car, maybe haha .

 

[nm9stheham]

I just started readin this thread.

1. The 1-1/16" MC may be on the largish side, but it would not cause the long pedal throw that you are experiencing. You would have good pedal throw but have to brake harder to stop. If anything, the large MC diameter should make the pedal throw shorter. I don't think you have progressed to the point to have this issue yet.
2. Have you pumped the pedal a number of times rapidly to see if it stiffens up and the throw gets shorter? This is a classic symptom of air in the system, especially beyond the MC. Air in the MC may or may not have this behavior. So what does pumping the pedal do? This is like diagnostics 101 for air in the system, so please test this.
3. The comment 4 in post #35 is where my thoughts have been going as I read through all of this; it sounds like the pushrod needs to be checked carefully, and may just be too short in the installation. I think you imply that you have an adjustable pushrod but have not explicitly said so. Is that the case? Simply try to adjust it longer at this point to see if the pedal throw improves.

Let us know on that and the pedal pumping results.

Also, please let us all know the Wilwood MC PN that you have.

 

[ir3333]

..sounds like the master is too small.
..Are you sure it is 1 1/16?

 

[DoctorDiff]

GM metric rear calipers are hard to bleed.

Did you adjust the parking brake mechanism before bleeding?

Did you unbolt and re-position the caliper while bleeding?

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4_17Gg7tdg"]Rear Disc Installation Support - YouTube[/ame]