Budget Build 5.9 for a 71 Scamp

[Dan the man]

@Bobzilla – thanks so much for the great info. It is SO helpful. I love this forum!

Ok so right now, what I'm thinking is I will get the Edelbrock 7577, a van or Jeep PS bracket, an electric fuel pump and keep all my Magnum accessories.

I have found a van PS bracket, but interested in the Jeep bracket. Is this what I would need? link
And then a pump and pulley, which I suppose is differnt from a van/truck pump and pulley? That would add cost.

@AJ/FormS – Good points. I think I will pretty much leave the motor alone. I will consider a cam regrind, perhaps.


A few random questions:
- What is the consensus on reusing head bolts?
- What is the difference between Schumacher conversion mounts and Trans Dapt mounts? The Trans dapt ones are about $85 cheaper.
- Any input on the best set up for cast iron manifolds? I will not be getting the high-dollar super rare 340 ones, thank you very much. But other than those, which offer the best performance?

Check your inbox for information about cast iron exhaust manifolds.

 

[HankRearden]

@Bobzilla – thanks so much for the great info. It is SO helpful. I love this forum!

Ok so right now, what I'm thinking is I will get the Edelbrock 7577, a van or Jeep PS bracket, an electric fuel pump and keep all my Magnum accessories.

I have found a van PS bracket, but interested in the Jeep bracket. Is this what I would need? link
And then a pump and pulley, which I suppose is differnt from a van/truck pump and pulley? That would add cost.

@AJ/FormS – Good points. I think I will pretty much leave the motor alone. I will consider a cam regrind, perhaps.


A few random questions:
- What is the consensus on reusing head bolts?
- What is the difference between Schumacher conversion mounts and Trans Dapt mounts? The Trans dapt ones are about $85 cheaper.
- Any input on the best set up for cast iron manifolds? I will not be getting the high-dollar super rare 340 ones, thank you very much. But other than those, which offer the best performance?

I used a ram power steering pump an pulley on both my dart madnum swap and my d truck swap.
The magnum does not use torque to yield head bolts. Reuse them.
I used headers on my magnum swaps so I cant say on manifolds.
Ive used multiple sets of 318 a body manifolds on la 318 and 360.
You can open them up a lot with a die grinder if you are motivated.
Ive never used conversion mounts. v8 spool mount k members are my preference.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Any input on the best set up for cast iron manifolds?

If you up-cam, and you do not install headers/free-flowing exhaust, you could be leaving over 30hp on the table, and a lot of torque will be lost, thru-out the entire rpm band.
If you intend to run log manifolds, I wouldn't waste money on a cam. The factory 5.9cam is a good street cam for the lighter weight 71 Scamp.
However, my notes say that the truck 5.9s had their cam's installed severely out of time, on purpose, to limit pressure, to prevent detonation.
If it was mine, I would change that.
BTW;
IIRC,
1) the early Magnums still had provision for mechanical fuel-pumps, and
2) IIRC, Hughes still offers akit to convert them to mechanical pump, but you'll need a timing cover with the pump-mount.
3) If you ditch the serpentine system, you'll have to change waterpumps too, for two reasons;
a) the serpentine pumps run backwards, and
b) just try and make the gasket seal, lol.
There's a few threads that detail this swap.
4) from memory, the 5.9 cam is; chit I forgot, I'll be back

EDIT,
I lost my notebook but then I found it!
My notes say that the 5.9 cam is
250/264/110, and .411/.430 lift.
The factory install is listed at Icl of 119* ..... Which would lead to an Ica of 64*, which, at 9.2 Scr, should make pressure of 140psi@800 ft elevation. and that's why, at low rpm, it feels like a pussy.
That cam needs to be advanced to around split overlap, say in at 106*, for an Ica of 51* which should increase the pressure to ~160psi, thus turning the pussycat into a tiger from just about idle to around 3600rpm..
The now working overlap of 37 degrees , is not far from the 340 cam's 44*, Unfortunately, the lobes on this cam are superslow, so the 050 numbers are pretty tame, 182/194, but, the lifters should last nearly forever.
That's what my notes say, which notes were gleaned from the members of FABO.

Elsewhere; the 5.9M cam is said to be
249/269/109, .410/.417lift,
Which if correct, then the overlap jumps to 41*, and installed on split-overlap, the Ica would be 49*, and the pressure would rise another 2psi.
I have not found the 050 numbers for this cam.

Either way, for this application, I wouldn't throw the factory 5.9 cam away, cuz pressure in the 160s is gunna be hard to find with an aftermarket cam, without increasing the Scr.
And when the pressure goes down, it takes the torque with it.

 

[273]

@Bobzilla – thanks so much for the great info. It is SO helpful. I love this forum!

Ok so right now, what I'm thinking is I will get the Edelbrock 7577, a van or Jeep PS bracket, an electric fuel pump and keep all my Magnum accessories.

I have found a van PS bracket, but interested in the Jeep bracket. Is this what I would need? link
And then a pump and pulley, which I suppose is differnt from a van/truck pump and pulley? That would add cost.

@AJ/FormS – Good points. I think I will pretty much leave the motor alone. I will consider a cam regrind, perhaps.


A few random questions:
- What is the consensus on reusing head bolts?
- What is the difference between Schumacher conversion mounts and Trans Dapt mounts? The Trans dapt ones are about $85 cheaper.
- Any input on the best set up for cast iron manifolds? I will not be getting the high-dollar super rare 340 ones, thank you very much. But other than those, which offer the best performance?

A 5.9l with headers and 4bbl basically makes 300 hp, but if you want a mild cam don't let AJ's made up scenarios stop you from doing it, AJ don't get power is generally added throughout the powerband. Here's a 5.9l with headers and 4bbl, stock cam VS a mild roller comp cam shown on the screen as you can the engine gains from 3,000 rpms+ and no signs of any real loss under 3,000 rpm, so if you want a cam go for it will give you gains you will notice no matter your gearing and stall.

Here's LA low cr 360, with a bunch of mods VS stock 2bbl, headers, mild ported heads, xe250h and xe268h cams 4bbl etc.. Still makes better power everywhere over stock.

 

[66fyssh]

2) IIRC, Hughes still offers akit to convert them to mechanical pump, but you'll need a timing cover with the pump-mount.

Yes, will need the cam snout extension from Hughes Engines if you keep the Magnum cam. I put mine in 3 or 4 years ago and have been beating on it since. Just make sure to use thread sealer. Or you could source an LA cam.

I kept the v-belt on my Magnum build.

 

[forphorty]

The crate engines Mopar sold had an LA front (timing cover out) that's exactly how I'm gonna set up my magnum in my truck. V belts not serpentine

This is how I'm going to do it if I end up doing a magnum swap for my Duster. I want it to look as much like an LA as possible. You may already know this, but the 5.9 magnum has a balance that is different than the LA 360. Several companies sell balancers with bolt on weights to match the specific engine. DODGE Professional Products 80012 Professional Products PowerForce Harmonic Dampers | Summit Racing

 

[remytherat]

What is the consensus on reusing head bolts?

Totally fine.

Any input on the best set up for cast iron manifolds?

Magnum on the passenger side, stock a body small block on the driver's side.

 

[ScampNYC]

This is how I'm going to do it if I end up doing a magnum swap for my Duster. I want it to look as much like an LA as possible. You may already know this, but the 5.9 magnum has a balance that is different than the LA 360. Several companies sell balancers with bolt on weights to match the specific engine. DODGE Professional Products 80012 Professional Products PowerForce Harmonic Dampers | Summit Racing

Thats cool. For me, I am keeping the serpentine system, mainly to try to save bucks. I already have it. I don't care really about it looking period correct. I don't want to have to buy a balancer, brackets, accessories. Like I said earlier, to do that from scratch is like $1500. I paid $375 for the motor..

Folks, I am committed to this path now. I just ordered a PS pump from a van!

That puts my spend at $419 so far:
Engine $375
PS van bracket $44 (had $10 coupon code)

 

[ScampNYC]

Got the heads off today.

The cross hatch is still visible, and no ridge, so I'm thinking I should be able to reuse the bore and pistons if luck prevails.

The amount of sludge in the lifter valley is a little concerning though.

Also, does anyone know what that oil cooler is? Is it for the trans? Or the PS system? Or something else?

 

[ScampNYC]

Another question. When I took the heads off, I forgot to number my head bolts. Is it okay if they are out of order?

 

[Bobzilla]

No need to keep head bolts in any order.
That should be a power steering cooler and will not be needed with your swap.

 

[remytherat]

I should be able to reuse the bore and pistons if luck prevails.

almost certainly

The amount of sludge in the lifter valley is a little concerning though.

If you are tearing it all down and hot tanking the block that doesn't matter.


Reminder that you will probably want to change the cam bearings (and definitely if you hot tank the block)

 

[Bobzilla]

Those were original style head gaskets, so it probably has not been apart before. That is good.

If all the cylinder bores look that good, meaning no rust, you will be in business. How far are you taking it apart?

 

[ScampNYC]

Those were original style head gaskets, so it probably has not been apart before. That is good.

If all the cylinder bores look that good, meaning no rust, you will be in business. How far are you taking it apart?

Sweet. I figured the whole damn way! That's the only way to hot tank it, right?
I'm doing this on a budget, but its important to me to be thorough ... and have nice paint job on the motor. I did a 2k hemi orange paint on a 440 and it was just so damn beautiful. I think this one I'll do in blue.

 

[Bobzilla]

What year is this engine? Make sure it has the LA style engine mount positions on both sides of the block. I heard the very late blocks no longer had those but I have not verified that yet. I think I see them in your pictures but want to make sure before it is potentially overlooked.

Since you are taking it down all the way, replace the cam bearings like mentioned in post 37. They are usually flaking apart. Also, when the engines don't get regular oil changes and sludge up like that, the piston ring oil holes usually get plugged up with carbon build up. Carefully clean that out of the ring grooves and holes before final cleaning and assembly.

 

[ScampNYC]

What year is this engine? Make sure it has the LA style engine mount positions on both sides of the block. I heard the very late blocks no longer had those but I have not verified that yet. I think I see them in your pictures but want to make sure before it is potentially overlooked.

Since you are taking it down all the way, replace the cam bearings like mentioned in post 37. They are usually flaking apart. Also, when the engines don't get regular oil changes and sludge up like that, the piston ring oil holes usually get plugged up with carbon build up. Carefully clean that out of the ring grooves and holes before final cleaning and assembly.

Great notes, thank you. The motor is a 2000. Hard to stomach that is 25 years old now.

 

[ScampNYC]

Some open questions rattling around in my head:

• Any recommendations for an electric fuel pump set up? I want something quiet and not too pricey.
• Does anyone know why Schumacher adapter plates are $80 better than Trans Dapt adapter plates? (adapting the 360 motor to /6 k frame)
• Any recs for a timing chain set?
• Should I get a Vevor Ultrasonic cleaner?

 

[Bobzilla]

The 2000 model year still has the LA mount locations, so that should be no problem.
Do you have the flex plate that was originally on the rear of the crankshaft? It will have the correct 5.9 Magnum balance weight. Depending the transmission you go with, you may be able to use the flex plate by slotting one of the mounting holes for the converter or transfer the weight to the converter.

 

[ScampNYC]

The 2000 model year still has the LA mount locations, so that should be no problem.
Do you have the flex plate that was originally on the rear of the crankshaft? It will have the correct 5.9 Magnum balance weight. Depending the transmission you go with, you may be able to use the flex plate by slotting one of the mounting holes for the converter or transfer the weight to the converter.

Flex plate is still on the back of the crank.

 

[ScampNYC]

Would you buy this? He said he'd do $850:

 

[remytherat]

I would be wearing of spending that much on a transmission that I am not 100% confident in. Note you will also have to shorten that driveshaft.

 

[Bobzilla]

Stock style timing chain is fine for this and is the cheapest. In fact, if you are a RockAuto user they have one by SA Gear in the closeout parts for a 2000 Ram truck for about $17, but you'd have to check shipping cost to see if it is worth it.

You will have to decide if that transmission setup is right for you. Personally, if I was keeping a tight budget and had no plans for a rear axle change, I would put a 904 transmission in it so it can retain the same original drive shaft. The description of that transmission kit says it was intended for a 73 charger. If that is true, the driveshaft should be too long for your swap, I think. You would have to verify that.

 

[AJ/FormS]

AJ don't get power is generally added throughout the powerband

I guess in my 55 years of experience, somewhere I missed that.
How about you just state your opinion without dragging mine, or others thru the mud?
I guess time will tell.

 

[TT5.9mag]

This is great info, thanks. If I do a Eddy intake, that's a $350 price difference but still cheaper than sourcing V belt pulleys, balancer and brackets, unless by grace of god I find a used set.

And good call on the cam regrind, someone on my original thread also recommended Oregon Cams. I'll have to do a price comparison. Bullet Cams is on the East so shipping may be better. I plan on keeping track of every dollar for this build!

Seems like valve springs will be a must as well.

That was me. Bullet Cams is good also and so is Delta Cams. Any of them can do a regrind. The engine @273 posted in post 29 is mine and currently in my truck and runs awesome with that tiny 212/218 cam. Valve springs are a MUST with any camshaft, the stock springs are garbage and meant for low rpm truck stuff. That being said, if 300 hp is your goal, pressure wash that thing, slap an intake and carb on it and send it. They make that easily with the stock cam. Even with manifolds it’ll be up near that.

If you up-cam, and you do not install headers/free-flowing exhaust, you could be leaving over 30hp on the table, and a lot of torque will be lost, thru-out the entire rpm band.
If you intend to run log manifolds, I wouldn't waste money on a cam. The factory 5.9cam is a good street cam for the lighter weight 71 Scamp.
However, my notes say that the truck 5.9s had their cam's installed severely out of time, on purpose, to limit pressure, to prevent detonation.
If it was mine, I would change that.
BTW;
IIRC,
1) the early Magnums still had provision for mechanical fuel-pumps, and
2) IIRC, Hughes still offers akit to convert them to mechanical pump, but you'll need a timing cover with the pump-mount.
3) If you ditch the serpentine system, you'll have to change waterpumps too, for two reasons;
a) the serpentine pumps run backwards, and
b) just try and make the gasket seal, lol.
There's a few threads that detail this swap.
4) from memory, the 5.9 cam is; chit I forgot, I'll be back

AJ fact check some of your stuff. Magnums never came with mechanical fuel pumps, ever. Late LAs had roller cams and came with TBI and had provisions for mechanical pumps but weren’t used. And the cam swap in a magnum makes a bunch of power even with stock manifolds. They are very under cammed from the factory. Up to 212 @ 050 they give up nothing down low and gain a bunch up top. We pulled mine down to 2500 and it was better everywhere.
@ScampNYC You either have to run the entire LA front dress or the magnum front dress. There’s no mixing and matching. If you use an LA front dress and want a mechanical pump, you need the snout extension from Hughes to bolt on a fuel pump eccentric.

 

[273]

I guess in my 55 years of experience, somewhere I missed that.
How about you just state your opinion without dragging mine, or others thru the mud?
I guess time will tell.

I can say what I want and allowed to give opinions about your opinions and not my fault if you never learnt in 55 year that power is not just made at peak rpms but also at low and mid rpms and that cr isn't the only power builder, wouldn't be a problem, but you'll just keep repeating that same non-sense over and over again that others have to correct. It's like you made it your life's mission to stop everyone from adding a cam, it's ridiculous.

One look at the dyno graph's shows your wrong, but you'll write the same novel on the next member's post asking about cams, not bothered by the evidence that runs contrary to what your saying.