Sick_Six225
72 Dodge Dart Swinger
I am looking to get rid of my External Ballast for an internal one inside the Ignition coil. I have a 225/3.7 any ideas? I got with summitracing and they told me PerTronix Flame-Thrower Ignition Coils 40501.
Built In Ballast Resistor In Ignition Coil
- Thread starter Sick_Six225
- Start date
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tekslk
Well-Known Member
PM trailbeast and get the hei conversion and get rid of your coil and balast resistor both and have a hotter spark.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
This, in my opinion, is generally a bad idea if you are using conventional points or Mopar ECU.
The reason is the original design itself!!!!
These were all designed to OPERATE thus:
With the engine running, the battery/ system voltage is actually 14V, not 12. The coil, operating through the ballast, depending on RPM, sees something on the order of 10-12V when running.
BUT WHEN STARTING the battery voltage is NOT 14V, it's not even 12V, and in the cold of winter, hard starting, flooded, or if the battery is down some, actual cranking voltage at the battery might only be 10V
What this means is that if you STILL HAVE the ballast in the circuit, the actual voltage to the COIL under this condition will be VERY low.
So ALL manufacturers, Ford, GM, Chrysler, AMC ALL of them used the same design --- a coil / resistor combination, which IS BYPASSED during cranking to give you a hotter spark
Using a coil designed for 14V destroys this design concept.
Now, if you want to use a CDI type ignition, or HEI this is no longer true. In the case of my backyard HEI conversion, I'm only using a stock factory coil with the resistor bypassed, so in this case the HEI produces more spark and certainly "at least as much" as the original system.
Johnny Dart
Well-Known Member
Got to ask Why ?
Sick_Six225
72 Dodge Dart Swinger
It seems that I am having a lot of trouble with this external Ballast. I have it all hooked up rite but its still showing that I have over 13v going to my coil. The Ballast is not dropping the volts to it at all. My coil is running really hot and the Ballast is running cool. I have used two different ones and same thing is happening. Car starts up great runs well but still coil is running so hot if i touch it it burns my hand. When i use my volt meter it shows the same amount of volts on both side and thats around a high 12v and a mid to high 13v. I am getting so lost on all this I am not sure what I need to do.
Sick_Six225
72 Dodge Dart Swinger
Wiring is fine, I have a push start on it and the battery voltage reads when running around 13.8-14.2.
tekslk
Well-Known Member
Somethings wired wrong but the hei conversion I told you about will eliminate a lot of old wiring plus give you better results. Cant believe you didnt order the kit yet, its like a $100. and easy to install.
Sick_Six225
72 Dodge Dart Swinger
do you have a link were I can check it out.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
With due respect he really should work out WTH is wrong with it at present before he "adds more troubles"
The thing is you have THREE threads and they all seem to be about the same problem.
1--WHAT do you have for wiring diagrams/ shop manual?
2--WHY are you using a "push start?"
3--If you have the ballast properly wired in, and the coil WHEN RUNNING is still running as high as you say, then the brown bypass circuit from the ignition switch is probably wired wrong, or problems in the switch
If you are going to fix this WE NEED MORE DETAILS. You need to sit up, pay attention, and keep this in one thread so people can follow along with "what you have" and "what you have done"
Go HERE and download the factory 72 Plymouth service manual, which as posted by AbodyJoe and is FREE
[ame]http://www.abodyjoe.com/pictures/Misc.%20car%20info/1972%20Plymouth%20Chassis%20Serv%20Man.pdf[/ame]
Simpler but not always complete, and not always correct diagrams at MyMopar
http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1972/72DartA.JPG
http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1972/72DartB.JPG
Now the original factory Mopar ignition switch is the "key" (no pun intended) to the whole deal. Ferd, GM, AMC used separate contacts in the starter solenoid to bypass the ballast resistor during "start."
Refer to the diagram below. I am assuming (maybe wrong) that you have a 2 pin resistor and the newer 4 pin ECU. In the diagram below, the top right wire marked "s" start is the BROWN ballast bypass coming from the ignition switch
The lower right marked "R" run is the switched ignition supply coming from the switch
Here's how the switch works.
Your ignition switch is SEVERAL completely separate switches in the can that we call "the ignition switch."
You have power coming into the switch from the battery buss, hot all the time, this will be the largest RED going to the switch connector
You have switched ACCESSORY coming OUT of the switch, hot in both "run" and "accessory." This is the large BLACK coming out
For "ignition run" you have what Ma calls IGN1, or we call "ignition run" traditionally dark blue. This is hot ONLY in run, and feeds power to the cluster gauges and warning lights and comes out through the bulkhead to feed the alternator field, regulator, and ignition system, THE RUN WIRE in the diagram below. On some cars, it feeds electric choke, and smog doo dads
For "start" which only operates the starter, we have the YELLOW start wire, comes from the switch, out through the bulkhead, and to the start relay. On cars which have seat belt interlocks, the yellow goes through the reset box, which you can bypass. The start wire is hot only in start
For "ignition bypass" which Ma calls "IGN2" we have the brown, comes from the switch, out through the bulkhead and to the coil side of the ballast. This is THE START WIRE in the diagram below, is hot only in start
Now to start finding out WTH is wrong, try this
Pull both connectors off the ballast resistor, and pull the connector off the ECU. Put your meter on the coil + terminal, and turn the key to "run" Tell us what you read. Should be zero volts
Hook wiring back up "normal" and with key in "run" but engine not running, measure voltage
A --at battery
B--both sides of ballast
C--at coil negative terminal
TrailBeast
AKA Mopars4us on Youtube
www.classichei.com
FABO members get 50 bucks off the price on the page.
Del, I think it would solve all the issues, since his voltage is within acceptable ranges.
Then he could toss the coil, ballast, ignition module and all as long as he has an electronic distributor in it already and not have to bother with the coil voltage during start and run.
Or do what I did and give it all to a broke down Mopar that was on the side of the road. (Which ended up buying one of my kits when he saw my HEI.)
Contact info for these is sales@classichei.com
Paypal for FABO members is $99.95 shipped to letsgo@cableone.net
You won't believe the difference in starting and reliability as the members that already have them have stated.
Frank Mopar
Well-Known Member
www.classichei.com
FABO members get 50 bucks off the price on the page.
Del, I think it would solve all the issues, since his voltage is within acceptable ranges.
Then he could toss the coil, ballast, ignition module and all as long as he has an electronic distributor in it already and not have to bother with the coil voltage during start and run.
Or do what I did and give it all to a broke down Mopar that was on the side of the road. (Which ended up buying one of my kits when he saw my HEI.)
Contact info for these is sales@classichei.com
Paypal for FABO members is $99.95 shipped to letsgo@cableone.net
You won't believe the difference in starting and reliability as the members that already have them have stated.
Do this ^^^^^ and be done with the BS
Sick_Six225
72 Dodge Dart Swinger
Has anyone used this before? I see it sets up pretty easy I just want to know it works well.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
So your solution is to throw more parts at the problem? Are you gonna pay the bill?
I did not realize that troubleshooting a problem to find the root cause was known as "the BS"
Inertia
Well-Known Member
I installed one of TrailBeast's units on my son's car, 69-340 Swinger, and frankly, it's amazing,..
The motor barely makes a single revolution, and fires right up,, cold or hot.. You never get to hear the gear reduction starter anymore..
Try it,, you'll like it..
But as 67Dart273 suggests,, you should resolve your other wiring issues as well..
The motor barely makes a single revolution, and fires right up,, cold or hot.. You never get to hear the gear reduction starter anymore..
Try it,, you'll like it..
But as 67Dart273 suggests,, you should resolve your other wiring issues as well..
Sick_Six225
72 Dodge Dart Swinger
67Dart273 Tomarrow I am going to run through the instructions that you gave me to see what I can figure out. I think I am going to be able to fix it with what you have given me. Thank you very much for your help it does mean alot. I will keep you updated with how it is going.
TrailBeast
AKA Mopars4us on Youtube
Del likes to figure everything out (No offense meant Del)
There are easily 20 members here using my ignition kits so far and counting.
You have already heard from at least one of them, and most claim the HEI conversion is the single best upgrade they made to thier car.
Almost two years now on my car without one single no start event, and I drive it every day everywhere I go as part of my onsite service business.
EDIT
I just got an email from you where you stated your car is a 72.
Points currently?
If so, you would need to use an electronic distributor to use the HEI ignition.
Otherwise I would recommend you use the Pertronics electronic conversion and an HEI coil with that.
Also works great but cost a little more than my kits.
BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
You can get the HEI parts at any junkyard. Below are photos of what to look for. You want the ignition module inside the GM distributor snip the leads at the pickup, grab the entire cable and GM coil, snip the other leads as far back as you can (red +12 V, wht tach output). You find these in any GM V-8 trucks 85-95, cars 85-93. It is termed the "small cap distributor" and "external coil". I also grabbed the knock sensor/module for my cars.
If you are timid of junkyards, have none, or think you won't find a GM truck, buy the parts new from TrailBeast or a GM dealer. You also need a Mopar electronic distributor, and you have a 50/50 chance of connecting it with correct polarity the 1st time.
An immediate solution to your problem would be to install the ballast resistor next to your ~1.5 ohm coil, wired in series. I did that in my Dart because I wired for later HEI (IGN 1 & 2 connected). Of course, I don't get the "ballast bypass" when starting that 67Dart273 mentions, but mine starts fine. I have a Crane XR 700 on it currently. Later I will put on the $45 HEI distributor I bought on ebay, which is a great option if you have anything but a slant. On my 383 (also has XR700), I just put on a coil that I think is ballasted because it measures ~2.5 ohm and is printed "electronic ignition only", and I bypassed the ballast. Haven't run engine yet.
TrailBeast
AKA Mopars4us on Youtube
Screw that, for a hundred bucks
I'd let someone do it for me that gaurantees thier work and makes it look good .
tekslk
Well-Known Member
I run the kit from trailbeast starts right up hot or cold, and it was the best hundred I ever spent,His support is excellent also if you need help.
Bulldozer
free ice cream sandwiches
Screw that, for a hundred bucks
I'd let someone do it for me that gaurantees thier work and makes it look good .
XS10
I love mine , still kicking *** on a daily basis
Swinger803
1973 Dart Swinger 225
Just my .02....learn to fix what you have. You may find success on occasion by throwing parts at a problem. However it doesn't teach you anything.
....I'm still learning myself.
....I'm still learning myself.
abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
i gotta agree. fix the issue before throwing other parts on it. you have something wired wrong. shouldn't be a hard fix. not like this stuff is rocket science for god sakes..
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Thanks Joe. I see nothing wrong with trying to upgrade the ignition at all. But the upgrade, whatever it might be, should be installed on a PROPERLY operating system.
Let's say the ignition switch is AFU. The OP does not sound like he is exactly comfortable with wiring. If he were to put "some" new upgrade system in the car, AND THEN (if) he were to make some little mistake wiring it, now you have TWO problems
My last point is, that once he finds the ?wiring? problem and fixes it, he may find that he now has the infamous VOLTAGE DROP problem, and must chase that down as well.
Please do NOT compound the problem by tossing in a bunch of others.
Sick_Six225
72 Dodge Dart Swinger
67Dart273 I checked out my wiring and all is in the rite place. This is what I am seeing I have my run wire going into my Ballast Resister the problems I am having I am getting nothing out the other side of the Ballast. So I have 12 Volt Going in and nothing going out the other end. c
Car is starting up great and is running just fine the ballast is not dropping the volts on the other side. When I hit the start it cranks up but as soon as my hand gets off of it it dies because I am getting 0Volts to it after that. All wires are done rite I am just not getting any volts on the other side of the Ballast. Any Ideas? Bad Ballast Resistor?
Car is starting up great and is running just fine the ballast is not dropping the volts on the other side. When I hit the start it cranks up but as soon as my hand gets off of it it dies because I am getting 0Volts to it after that. All wires are done rite I am just not getting any volts on the other side of the Ballast. Any Ideas? Bad Ballast Resistor?
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