Burned a Hole

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SpeedThrills

SpeedThrills

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Soooo, it seems there's always something unexpected. I'm far from a pro welder, but I've had pretty good success.
I cut the rust out of my Duster project's doors and made nice little patches from cardboard templates to be butt welded in.
The doors are about .039", and the patches are .030".
I welded a couple scraps of the .030, seemed okay. I don't think I've welded material this thin before.
The welder is a Hobart Handler 140, set as low as it will go- 25 amps.
I then proceeded to make the mess shown in the pic. After this, I have a quarter patch, trunk extension and a tail light panel to do. Practice?
IMG_1797.JPG
 
Isn't there some trick with backing it with a thick piece of brass and it will suck some of the heat out of it so you don't blow through and it won't stick to it too bad so you can get it off......

(Heh heh i said blow ........and get it off)

But seriously, maybe one of the pros can weigh in on those theories.....smaller wire? Is your gas turned up?
 
You could always put a piece of metal on the inside of the door (if possible) to use as a back up. It has to be large enough to cover the whole area that you're welding. If the weld gets to hot it will just weld to the piece of metal on the backside of the door. Unless you're making a show car you just leave the extra piece of metal in there and throw a little undercoat on it. I use pieces of metal for back up all the time when I'm welding thin metal. Looks like you're blowing out the original door sheet metal as well so using a thicker "fill in" piece isn't going to solve your problem.


PS - There's a big difference between ""Burned a hole" and "Burned A hole"....LOL
treblig
 
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SpeedThrills said:
Soooo, it seems there's always something unexpected. I'm far from a pro welder, but I've had pretty good success.
I cut the rust out of my Duster project's doors and made nice little patches from cardboard templates to be butt welded in.
The doors are about .039", and the patches are .030".
I welded a couple scraps of the .030, seemed okay. I don't think I've welded material this thin before.
The welder is a Hobart Handler 140, set as low as it will go- 25 amps.
I then proceeded to make the mess shown in the pic. After this, I have a quarter patch, trunk extension and a tail light panel to do. Practice?
View attachment 1715105356
Click to expand...
What wire and gas are you using? That can affect heat a LOT.

clementine said:
Isn't there some trick with backing it with a thick piece of brass and it will suck some of the heat out of it so you don't blow through and it won't stick to it too bad so you can get it off......

(Heh heh i said blow ........and get it off)

But seriously, maybe one of the pros can weigh in on those theories.....smaller wire? Is your gas turned up?
Click to expand...
Use Copper, it won't stick
Treblig said:
You could always put a piece of metal on the inside of the door (if possible) to use as a back up. It has to be large enough to cover the whole area that you're welding. If the weld gets to hot it will just weld to the piece of metal on the backside of the door. Unless you're making a show car you just leave the extra piece of metal in there and throw a little undercoat on it. I use pieces of metal for back up all the time when I'm welding thin metal. Looks like you're blowing out the original door sheet metal as well so using a thicker "fill in" piece isn't going to solve your problem.


PS - There's a big difference between ""Burned a hole" and "Burned A hole"....LOL
treblig
Click to expand...

Use a copper welding spoon or if you wanna a cheap trick, take vice grips, stick a piece of 20 gauge copper sheet in the jaws and use it as a welding spoon.
 
You can fill the hole by using short bursts of weld on the edges of the hole slowly filling it in.......weld adding filler, stop, watch area cool and just before the glow of the spot fades completely, add another spot of weld. Do this till the hole is filled; it will probably need dressing up with a grinder, but it will be filled and you can move on. The use of some sort of a backer plate also works, aluminum, copper, or brass are materials you could use, just remember that as a heat sink it's gonna get hotter than hell fast. You may achieve good results by just doing short spot welds rather than attempting a continuous bead.
 
Quarter patches take 4673 spot welds to complete! Kidding aside, lots of small tacks and allowing to cool in between. Lots. As stated above, don't try to do a long continuous bead. It will blow through and warp.
 
I knew to use short bursts. I didn't realize how short!
I can't get a back up metal in there, it's right at the front, lower corner. Well, maybe I can. I have to look.
I'm using .030 wire, with 40 psi argon.
 
I could be wrong but I think 40psi is a little high. I think I run around 15 if I recall. Higher if I'm outside in the breeze.
 
I had a Hobart 140 just like yours and was having same problem at the lowest setting. I borrowed my friends Lincoln 110 volt and it worked better on the thin material. I was building a lake for a guy and he was showing me his shop. He had a Lincoln Weld Pak 140 and said he wished he had bought 220 volt so I traded my new Hobart for his 110 volt. We were both happy. Since then I bought a Millermatic 211 which I love. Like said above short burst and you can fill the holes.
 
whitepunkonnitro said:
Yeah, 40 is a bit excessive.
For sheet metal work, I just use .030 Flux Core. Cheap and foolproof
Click to expand...
Me too!! But you still have to weld a small spot then move to another area always moving to a cooler piece of metal and avoid overheating any one spot.

Treblig
 
If you've already got .030 that'll do. Using .023 is optimal for sheet metal, but certainly not required. It doesn't sound like much of a difference, but the surface area is approximately 25% smaller. The amperage is a function of wire speed and distance from your work. The smaller wire will be fed in at a faster rate and generate the same amount of heat, but it will be concentrated in a smaller area. A "spot weld nozzle" will produce consistent results by maintaining your distance and arc profile.

As far as gas goes, C25 (25% co2, 75% argon) is pretty much mandatory. Straight argon tends to have poor fusion and penetration. Straight co2 burns too hot and messy for sheet metal. Backing your flow rate off to around 25cfh will definitely help things out too.

Every extra minute you spend on weld prep and welding will save you ten minutes in bodywork. I'd much rather spend time playing with metal than playing with filler and guide coats. Make your patch and use it to scribe out your work. Cut it short and enlarge it slowly till your patch fits with a slight gap(roughly the width of your wire). To back your work you can flatten a piece of copper pipe and attach it with strong magnets. You can also buy backing plates. They are formable copper strips with magnets already embedded in them. A plug weld backer from Durston also has it's uses.

When actually welding you are just making lots of tacks. Do the tacks like torquing a wheel down. Jump back and forth staying away from the previous one and let things cool (a cool wet rag helps too). Don't rush it or the time you save is going to be wasted sanding.
 
For cooling ill use some compressed air for a second or ten before moving well away from my tack.....to tack again and repeat... I've had good results with no warpage.
 
Man I clicked agree on so many post I'll just say it.:D

Short blips will fill it in.
 
Pascamp said:
If you've already got .030 that'll do. Using .023 is optimal for sheet metal, but certainly not required. It doesn't sound like much of a difference, but the surface area is approximately 25% smaller. The amperage is a function of wire speed and distance from your work. The smaller wire will be fed in at a faster rate and generate the same amount of heat, but it will be concentrated in a smaller area. A "spot weld nozzle" will produce consistent results by maintaining your distance and arc profile.

As far as gas goes, C25 (25% co2, 75% argon) is pretty much mandatory. Straight argon tends to have poor fusion and penetration. Straight co2 burns too hot and messy for sheet metal. Backing your flow rate off to around 25cfh will definitely help things out too.

Every extra minute you spend on weld prep and welding will save you ten minutes in bodywork. I'd much rather spend time playing with metal than playing with filler and guide coats. Make your patch and use it to scribe out your work. Cut it short and enlarge it slowly till your patch fits with a slight gap(roughly the width of your wire). To back your work you can flatten a piece of copper pipe and attach it with strong magnets. You can also buy backing plates. They are formable copper strips with magnets already embedded in them. A plug weld backer from Durston also has it's uses.

When actually welding you are just making lots of tacks. Do the tacks like torquing a wheel down. Jump back and forth staying away from the previous one and let things cool (a cool wet rag helps too). Don't rush it or the time you save is going to be wasted sanding.
Click to expand...
Agree on the .023 wire. It doesn't take as much heat to melt.
 
I have taken a copper pipe, beat it flat with a hammer and used it as backup behind the blown out so that I can fill it.
 
First, I had a few things wrong in my initial post:
-I'm using 75/25 Argon/Carbon Dioxide.
-I'm using it at 20 psi, not 40.
-I didn't have the feed all the way down. I didn't realize feed affected amps. I have it at about 18 now. It was at 30.

I still had trouble, but I seem to be getting better. The first pic is after I fixed the mess from yesterday. And no, I don't have any pics from before I smoothed it! (Yecchh)
The second pic is the other door, a hole in the same spot. It's going much better now. It takes forever. But I guess it'll go better as I go.
I'm also using a wet rag to cool it as I skip around.

Thanks for the help thus far.
IMG_1799.JPG
IMG_1800.JPG
 
Is there a reason you're doing butt welds instead of making a flange and overlapping the metal? I bought a pneumatic flanging tool a few months ago and it's been an immense help. I've also watched a few of this guys videos and he has some really good information on all aspects of body work. Here's a case in point:

Flange Weld or Butt Weld? Which Is The BEST For Me?? Do It Yourself Welding!
 
clementine said:
Isn't there some trick with backing it with a thick piece of brass and it will suck some of the heat out of it so you don't blow through and it won't stick to it too bad so you can get it off......

(Heh heh i said blow ........and get it off)

But seriously, maybe one of the pros can weigh in on those theories.....smaller wire? Is your gas turned up?
Click to expand...

Copper. Find a block of copper.
 
Butt welding is a pain, lap joints are by far easier. Short tacks,wait for glow to go and tack again. Compressed air, using water is a bad idea,l want to keep it dry until its sealed.
The idea is to be moving as you weld also. Keeping patch and base as close as possible, as a gap initiates burn through.
 
Treblig said:
PS - There's a big difference between ""Burned a hole" and "Burned A hole"....LOL
treblig
Click to expand...
Ain't that the truth! LOL
Keystone said:
Is there a reason you're doing butt welds instead of making a flange and overlapping the metal?

Flange Weld or Butt Weld? Which Is The BEST For Me?? Do It Yourself Welding!
Click to expand...
I read or saw somewhere that a butt weld keeps water from getting trapped and starting more rust. I 'll watch that video when I get some time.
Tooljunkie said:
Compressed air, using water is a bad idea,l want to keep it dry until its sealed.
Click to expand...
How can the water get trapped? It won't get primed for a little while.
clementine said:
you have improved your MO immensely in a short time.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry, MO?

Thanks everyone. All of your tips and ideas have helped me immensely.
 
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