carb. crazzzzyness!!!!!!!!!

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440nika

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Hey guys, I got a 70' dart with a 440 that has been bored .030 with a mild cam and a Edelbrock performer RPM intake. The cam was described to me as being like one step over stock or a "RV" cam. I'm not super mechanically inclined when it comes to tuning engines and carbs. I currently have a Holley 650 dp carb. on the car and I just cant get it tuned for my type of driving. I love the carb. on the car and wish I could get it tuned for my type of driving but I don't race this car and unless i drive around with my foot on the floor boards which at that time it runs great i get a hesitation or lope when i drive it normal at pull outs. I also have a hard time keeping it running when its started cold for the first minute or so without me playing with the gas pedal. My question is to any of you carb. experts out there is if you could suggest a good carb. for this car to use as a Sunday driver. I've got advice from Summit Racing saying to use an Edelbrock performer 1407 750cfm. Then I talked to Jegs and they suggested Edelbrock performer 1405 600cfm. Then I called Edelbrock and their tech guy tells me to use a Edelbrock AVS Thunder series 1805 650cfm. You can see my situation here is one of total confusion and I've always got super advise from this web site so if anyone knows alot about what I'm trying to say here about my car please let me know what your thinking. Please no guessers cause I'm already confused enough lol. Thanks Dave
 
I'm thinkin the 650 CFM is a little small for a big block. I'd be looking for an 850 CFM holley if it were me, or the 870 CFM street avanger is a nice all around carb, for your application. JMO.
 
Personally I'm a fan of ThermoQuads but they are complicated and tough to tune if it's not already good when you get it. In your case 800 cfm. Edelbrock Thunder AVS, I agree with fanofpetty not sure why they recommended 600/650 cfm people run those on mild 318s.
 
Re: the "bog" you're experiencing...you might look at your accel pump system; make sure you're getting a good, long pump shot. Could also be ignition advance not working/not setup properly.

Re: stalling cold....this could just be a choke adjustment. Do you have an electric choke on the carb?

We really need more info on your setup as it is now...cam specs, convertor, gears, etc, etc, etc.

If you decide to change carbs, I'd definitely go with a 750, either Carter/Edelbrock or Holley.
 
you are going to get a lot of opinions here but in my opinion, the 650 AVS thunder series will run perfect. i would stay away from the eddy 1407 750. i have had nothing but problems with them. the factory 70-71 440 magnum auto's came with a 4966 630 CFM AVS . if you must run a 750 , i would start over with a brand new holley and make sure it is set up correctly. this is what i will be running on my basically stock 440
 

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As for a new carb, for the easiest replacement, my choice would be the 770/870 Holley Avenger. If going Eddy, which would require some fuel line/ linkage fiddling, i would use the 800 Thunder series.

With that said, it's possible to make the 650DP usable for your situation, but will require tuning as 65val referred to. And it's not to say that a new replacement wont need a little tweaking itself.
 
why not just tune what ya got? Theres likely some members in your area that could help you out
 
There is no reason a 650 DP won't run on that car.

There is several areas of concern, and this is "carb 101"

FIRST Make sure there are no vacuum leaks. Probe around the carb base and other areas on the intake with a scrap length of fuel hose, one end to your ear. Also good for finding exhaust leaks

Check your fuel pressure. You could be pushing fuel right past the needle/ seats at too high pressure

NEXT check the float level.

Then use (water even) in a squirt bottle, short squirts around the carb base, etc. Changes in idle mean a leak

WHAT IS the timing? You want a SHORT mechanical curve and LOTS of initial advance. This alone may clear up the "carb problem"

Next, and ONLY after you get the timing set, investigate the power valve. There are lots of articles on the www, Google it. You will need to tear down the carb and read "what's in" the carb, and about all you can do to tell if it's leaking, is to REPLACE it. But you'll have to measure intake vacuum at idle (AFTER setting timing!!!) to determine if the PV is in the right range.

What you are after with the power valve, initially, is to make sure it is not coming open at idle/ low RPM.

After you have done this, get the engine fully warmed and adjust the idle speed/ idle mixture. You'll need to bounce between the two. Turn the idle mixture screws in until you feel a drop in speed, or watch a vacuum gauge, then bring them slowly out until it "peaks." Then just touch them in (CW for most) towards the lean side until the engine "not quite" drops in speed or vacuum.

Touch up the idle speed, and if you had to change it very much, re-touch the idle screws. IE on something like a stock, stick 318, you don't want to adjust the mixture at 1000RPM and then set the speed down to 600. You want to adjust the mixture as close as you can get to final idle speed.

If you can NOT get a nice idle, and you are SURE the fuel pressure, the float level, and the power valve number is OK, suspect a leaky power valve and replace it.

Next run the car and see where you are. If medium cruise is still not right, see what the plugs look like and only after all the first steps are confirmed OK, do you want to play with jet size.

Random comments.

Cold start. After the carb is correct for warm running, then you can attack the cold start. Do you run a choke? If not, the carb might be jetted on the lean side, or not have enough accelerator pump shot, and you might just expect too much. No carbureted car, example, a "smog" mid 70's car, is going to start and run decent in cold weather without fiddling with the throttle.

Does this problem get worse / better/ no change with outdoor temperature? You could be having fuel boil or vapor lock problems, or you could be having these problems ON TOP of a badly tuned carb.

WHAT KIND of DP is this? Square or spread bore? Example, years ago I had two different Holley spread bore 650's on my 340, and had the same problem with both for a short time. The rear barrels would get "sticky" and would not quite spring completely shut, which once caused the car to act as if the throttle had stuck, and also of course made for high/ erratic and poor idle. You might try a thin tie wire in the rear linkage to keep the rear barrels shut and test drive on the "2 barrel" to see if that affects the problem.
 
Little more info. update on my car. It has a manual choke with a stock convertor and the gears are 3:55 sure grip. I don't understand the recommendations for the higher cfm carbs when from factory this 440 came with a 650cfm i believe from my homework. I do believe this carb. could be tuned to my likeness but from talking to Holley tech support these double pump carbs could be very difficult to tune if not experienced. I would be more than happy to have someone look at this car for me with more knowledge than myself but as of now I haven't had any luck here in my area finding anyone. I live 5 mile outside of Irwin Pa. 15642.

I did check for vaccum leaks and didnt find anything so far. I did spray around the base of the carb with no difference in anything. The fuel pressure at idle is in between 5 or 6. Im a little stumped with checking the timing, Thats getting past my strengths so i prefer not to mess with that if i can.

I understand the rough idle as you stated and i probably am asking for a bit much cause its not that bad and doesn't idle rough at all after its warm.

Thanks for all the advise so far. I'm trying to addapt it all into my next steps.
 
you are going to get a lot of opinions here but in my opinion, the 650 AVS thunder series will run perfect. i would stay away from the eddy 1407 750. i have had nothing but problems with them. the factory 70-71 440 magnum auto's came with a 4966 630 CFM AVS . if you must run a 750 , i would start over with a brand new holley and make sure it is set up correctly. this is what i will be running on my basically stock 440

I highlighted the above due to the fact that it is a fact. The earlier 440's even came with 600 AFB's without a secondary air valve. It seems to me most people are not reading what you wrote about not racing it and suggesting some carbs that are to big to way freakin to big.

Regarding the 650 DP Holley you have now, if it is in good shape, I'd run with that. Focus on the primary side of the tune first and the pump shot delivery of fuel. If you need to change a cam on the pump shots delivery, that isn't to hard to do and the cams are cheap.

IF a new carb was in the picture, I would look at the 650 AVS or a vacuum secondary Holley.
I would not recommend a small primary TQ because the primary side is very tiny and suited for a 340 or less C.I.D. daily driver. Or a warmed up 318 or smaller engine. The stock 440 TQ's were the larger primary units. (Small primary @ 1.38 vs the large primary @ 1.50.)

After the 101 lesson above on carb and timing gets done, you should have it squared away. Though I think your fuel pressure a little bit low @ 5-6 psi.
 
Checking out your timing is easy, but systematic, and you simply must learn to do it. Once you understand it, it's "easy."

First, buy, get, build a "piston stop." This is because you should not assume that your timing marks are correct, as the balancer could have slipped the outer/ inner parts

PIston stop: This are mine I made over 30 years ago for a small block

attachment.php


You can buy them from Summit, Jegs, others. Remove the no1 plug, make sure the piston is "down a ways" and remove the battery ground for safety. Install the device. You may have to adjust it the first time. Gently wrench the engine around until the piston stops on the device. You are NOT trying to stop the engine on TDC but rather with the piston down in the hole somewhat, not critical.

With the piston stopped on the device, carefully make a temporary mark below TDC on your timing tab onto the balancer.

Now do the same thing, rotating the engine CCW. You will now have two marks some distance apart. True TDC will be halfway in between, and if the original mark is correct, that is where it will be.

NOW to check the mechanical advance, you either need to "degree the balancer," buy a "timing tape" for the size of your balancer, or get a "delay, readout, or dial up" timing light. These have either a meter or digi display or calibrated dial. You run the engine up, turn the dial to bring the marks to appear to be TDC, and the readout of the light tells you how much advance you have.

SOME OF these are not reliable. I much prefer a simple light, and degreed wheel.

SO make your choice. Either

1---buy a readout type light

2--measure carefully around your balancer with a flexible tape, ACCURATELY, and figure "degrees per inch," and then scribe marks into the wheel. I usually figure how many inches it takes to equal 40* on the wheel, and carefully measure that off WITH THE TAPE You cannot do that first measurement with dividers. Make a scribe mark with a square and sharp awl/ scribe. You can make them deeper later with a sharp file

Then, using dividers, divide the 40 in half for 20, and add 20 more to the 40 for 60 total. You can check zero to 40 both ways at the 20 mark to be sure your dividers are set correctly.

So now you have marks by 20* out to 60.

Now divide that in half for 10, and again, you can check from 10 to zero and 10 to 20 to be sure the dividers are correct.

3--After measuring around the balancer, you can look at Jegs or Summit, etc for the proper size timing tape and simply, carefully, stick it to the balancer.

NOW you can check timing.

For a "starter" curve, you want 18-22 "in the distributor mechanical, and depending on the cam, "dead stock" or "factory performance" or "somewhat hotter" you'll want anywhere from 10--20* intitial timing at idle, no vacuum

My very mild 360 runs about 15 initial and about 36-7 total (no vacuum) so that means there's about 22 "in the distributor" EXPRESSED IN CRANK DEGREES. This is important, because most of the spec and shop manuals use DISTRIBUTOR degrees, which are HALF of crank degrees.

(On many Mopar mechanisms, the advance degree amount in DIST degrees is stamped on the bottom of the mechanism. This means "crank degrees" are double that amount

This one here, a late 70's smogger is stamped 15*. That means it's a whopping 30!!! degrees!!! at the crank

http://image.moparmusclemagazine.co..._electronic_ignition_system+advance_plate.jpg

Basically, you want all the initial "it will stand" without kicking back on the starter. You can try this a little at a time, and you can also time it for maximum idle vacuum.

Then see what the full mechanical (no vacuum) total is. If you are not comfortable revving the engine, disconnect the belts to disable the fan and other mechanical drives, check with the engine "barely warm" and don't run more than long enough to check timing. Watch the marks, bring RPM up until you get no further advance, and determine how far it is advancing. Depending on cam, heads, compression, fuel quality and a few other things, anywhere from 32to 38 or so may be indicated.

You'll want another 10-12 or so on top of that figure with the vacuum connected, running at "light throttle," "medium to high cruise."

IF YOU HAVE a stock "smogger" distributor, these typically came with a very long, very slow advance, which means you can NOT simply "bump up" the initial timing, because a the top end it will be FAR over advanced.
 
Just to clarify my thoughts Rob, while i did say that the current carb was doable with some tuning, if i was going to shell out 400ish bucks for a new one and had a light car with a 440, with a vac secondary carb i would rather have the capacity of the 800cfm range if i ever needed it. Hey, it's a 440 dart, how can you not jump on it heavy every now and then.:D
 
LOL @ Rick, yes, I hear ya. The current "RV" cam is going to keep it a relaxed 440 by compare to a 440 with a ...the "Goods" ya know. The 440 in it's barley above stock condition will choke down about 650cfm @ 5,000 rpm. Now considering tire size and the gears..................3.55's and a stock converter, tire size was what???
 
I really feel your pain; I (upon advice of an Edelbrock tech whom I called and described what engine I had and what I wanted to do with it) have on top of my rebuilt 340 in my Dart GT a pair of Edelbrock aluminum heads, Edelbrock Air Gap Intake, and Edelbrock 750 carb, all new components bought new last year and installed as part of the engine rebuild. Lately the 340 pops and produces mini backfires, hesitates and then surges when you give it any gas, and I've had three different garages look at it w/o any success. I'm beginning to suspect the carb is bad, and Edelbrock's answer when I called and discussed the problems I'm having was to tell me to remove the carb and ship it back to their shop in California to have it examined. I was hoping they'd have a regional presence in my area where I could make arrangements to have the 340 and its carb diagnosed, but no such luck.
I subsequently found a different shop here in Franklin, TN, about which I heard good reviews, and e-mailed them re: the 340. I desctribed my setup, and the reply I got back was this:

"John,
Thanks for contacting us.
We don't work on cars with Edelbrock carbs. It's not worth our time or your money. If you'd like, we can install a new Holley HP carb and dial it in perfectly for you. However, our shop is full and we wouldn't be able to do the work for a couple of weeks. Feel free to call if you'd like to make an appointment.
Sincerely,
Mike"

Once I got done laughing, I realized there is quite the contingent out there which has no respect for Edelbrock's product. Do y'all think that if you're using them on Fords or Chevrolets they're great, but they just don't do well on Mopars? Do some Edelbrock carbs simply resent being installed on a Mopar engine?
 
Now there's a shop with an enlightened attitude for ya!! Sounds like they just want to soak you for new Holley, as opposed to actually troubleshooting yours. Wouldn't surprise me if your problems aren't even carb-related.

So much for the good reviews.
 
Just to clarify my thoughts Rob, while i did say that the current carb was doable with some tuning, if i was going to shell out 400ish bucks for a new one and had a light car with a 440, with a vac secondary carb i would rather have the capacity of the 800cfm range if i ever needed it. Hey, it's a 440 dart, how can you not jump on it heavy every now and then.:D
I totally agree......and lets not forget factory 440's also came with as much as 1250 CFM ( six pack), and you did'nt have to race them! They were daily drivers! I own one. LOL!
 
why not just tune what ya got? Theres likely some members in your area that could help you out

There is no reason a 650 DP won't run on that car.

There is several areas of concern, and this is "carb 101"

FIRST Make sure there are no vacuum leaks. Probe around the carb base and other areas on the intake with a scrap length of fuel hose, one end to your ear. Also good for finding exhaust leaks

Check your fuel pressure. You could be pushing fuel right past the needle/ seats at too high pressure

NEXT check the float level.

Then use (water even) in a squirt bottle, short squirts around the carb base, etc. Changes in idle mean a leak

WHAT IS the timing? You want a SHORT mechanical curve and LOTS of initial advance. This alone may clear up the "carb problem"

Next, and ONLY after you get the timing set, investigate the power valve. There are lots of articles on the www, Google it. You will need to tear down the carb and read "what's in" the carb, and about all you can do to tell if it's leaking, is to REPLACE it. But you'll have to measure intake vacuum at idle (AFTER setting timing!!!) to determine if the PV is in the right range.

What you are after with the power valve, initially, is to make sure it is not coming open at idle/ low RPM.

After you have done this, get the engine fully warmed and adjust the idle speed/ idle mixture. You'll need to bounce between the two. Turn the idle mixture screws in until you feel a drop in speed, or watch a vacuum gauge, then bring them slowly out until it "peaks." Then just touch them in (CW for most) towards the lean side until the engine "not quite" drops in speed or vacuum.

Touch up the idle speed, and if you had to change it very much, re-touch the idle screws. IE on something like a stock, stick 318, you don't want to adjust the mixture at 1000RPM and then set the speed down to 600. You want to adjust the mixture as close as you can get to final idle speed.

If you can NOT get a nice idle, and you are SURE the fuel pressure, the float level, and the power valve number is OK, suspect a leaky power valve and replace it.

Next run the car and see where you are. If medium cruise is still not right, see what the plugs look like and only after all the first steps are confirmed OK, do you want to play with jet size.

Random comments.

Cold start. After the carb is correct for warm running, then you can attack the cold start. Do you run a choke? If not, the carb might be jetted on the lean side, or not have enough accelerator pump shot, and you might just expect too much. No carbureted car, example, a "smog" mid 70's car, is going to start and run decent in cold weather without fiddling with the throttle.

Does this problem get worse / better/ no change with outdoor temperature? You could be having fuel boil or vapor lock problems, or you could be having these problems ON TOP of a badly tuned carb.

WHAT KIND of DP is this? Square or spread bore? Example, years ago I had two different Holley spread bore 650's on my 340, and had the same problem with both for a short time. The rear barrels would get "sticky" and would not quite spring completely shut, which once caused the car to act as if the throttle had stuck, and also of course made for high/ erratic and poor idle. You might try a thin tie wire in the rear linkage to keep the rear barrels shut and test drive on the "2 barrel" to see if that affects the problem.

Checking out your timing is easy, but systematic, and you simply must learn to do it. Once you understand it, it's "easy."

First, buy, get, build a "piston stop." This is because you should not assume that your timing marks are correct, as the balancer could have slipped the outer/ inner parts

PIston stop: This are mine I made over 30 years ago for a small block

attachment.php


You can buy them from Summit, Jegs, others. Remove the no1 plug, make sure the piston is "down a ways" and remove the battery ground for safety. Install the device. You may have to adjust it the first time. Gently wrench the engine around until the piston stops on the device. You are NOT trying to stop the engine on TDC but rather with the piston down in the hole somewhat, not critical.

With the piston stopped on the device, carefully make a temporary mark below TDC on your timing tab onto the balancer.

Now do the same thing, rotating the engine CCW. You will now have two marks some distance apart. True TDC will be halfway in between, and if the original mark is correct, that is where it will be.

NOW to check the mechanical advance, you either need to "degree the balancer," buy a "timing tape" for the size of your balancer, or get a "delay, readout, or dial up" timing light. These have either a meter or digi display or calibrated dial. You run the engine up, turn the dial to bring the marks to appear to be TDC, and the readout of the light tells you how much advance you have.

SOME OF these are not reliable. I much prefer a simple light, and degreed wheel.

SO make your choice. Either

1---buy a readout type light

2--measure carefully around your balancer with a flexible tape, ACCURATELY, and figure "degrees per inch," and then scribe marks into the wheel. I usually figure how many inches it takes to equal 40* on the wheel, and carefully measure that off WITH THE TAPE You cannot do that first measurement with dividers. Make a scribe mark with a square and sharp awl/ scribe. You can make them deeper later with a sharp file

Then, using dividers, divide the 40 in half for 20, and add 20 more to the 40 for 60 total. You can check zero to 40 both ways at the 20 mark to be sure your dividers are set correctly.

So now you have marks by 20* out to 60.

Now divide that in half for 10, and again, you can check from 10 to zero and 10 to 20 to be sure the dividers are correct.

3--After measuring around the balancer, you can look at Jegs or Summit, etc for the proper size timing tape and simply, carefully, stick it to the balancer.

NOW you can check timing.

For a "starter" curve, you want 18-22 "in the distributor mechanical, and depending on the cam, "dead stock" or "factory performance" or "somewhat hotter" you'll want anywhere from 10--20* intitial timing at idle, no vacuum

My very mild 360 runs about 15 initial and about 36-7 total (no vacuum) so that means there's about 22 "in the distributor" EXPRESSED IN CRANK DEGREES. This is important, because most of the spec and shop manuals use DISTRIBUTOR degrees, which are HALF of crank degrees.

(On many Mopar mechanisms, the advance degree amount in DIST degrees is stamped on the bottom of the mechanism. This means "crank degrees" are double that amount

This one here, a late 70's smogger is stamped 15*. That means it's a whopping 30!!! degrees!!! at the crank

http://image.moparmusclemagazine.co..._electronic_ignition_system+advance_plate.jpg

Basically, you want all the initial "it will stand" without kicking back on the starter. You can try this a little at a time, and you can also time it for maximum idle vacuum.

Then see what the full mechanical (no vacuum) total is. If you are not comfortable revving the engine, disconnect the belts to disable the fan and other mechanical drives, check with the engine "barely warm" and don't run more than long enough to check timing. Watch the marks, bring RPM up until you get no further advance, and determine how far it is advancing. Depending on cam, heads, compression, fuel quality and a few other things, anywhere from 32to 38 or so may be indicated.

You'll want another 10-12 or so on top of that figure with the vacuum connected, running at "light throttle," "medium to high cruise."

IF YOU HAVE a stock "smogger" distributor, these typically came with a very long, very slow advance, which means you can NOT simply "bump up" the initial timing, because a the top end it will be FAR over advanced.

This is good info. Lots of carb issues, especially idle and just off idle are not really "carb" issues. The issues are rooted in other systems, likely ignition. Lots of other good stuff in the thread.

The carb you have is fine as long as you take the time to dial it in.

I wouldn't put a 750cfm ede on a lawnmower... they are toughest ede carb to deal with.
 
Holley has an excellent book on tuning their carbs thats available on amazon. Why not take the time to learn enough to get yourself out of a pinch while youre at it.Murphys law if you dont teach yourself a little the problem will pop back up.I knew didly about carbs but with a little studying and the holley book I have my dominator dialed in and crisp.
 
I really feel your pain; I (upon advice of an Edelbrock tech whom I called and described what engine I had and what I wanted to do with it) have on top of my rebuilt 340 in my Dart GT a pair of Edelbrock aluminum heads, Edelbrock Air Gap Intake, and Edelbrock 750 carb, all new components bought new last year and installed as part of the engine rebuild. Lately the 340 pops and produces mini backfires, hesitates and then surges when you give it any gas, and I've had three different garages look at it w/o any success. I'm beginning to suspect the carb is bad, and Edelbrock's answer when I called and discussed the problems I'm having was to tell me to remove the carb and ship it back to their shop in California to have it examined. I was hoping they'd have a regional presence in my area where I could make arrangements to have the 340 and its carb diagnosed, but no such luck.
I subsequently found a different shop here in Franklin, TN, about which I heard good reviews, and e-mailed them re: the 340. I desctribed my setup, and the reply I got back was this:

"John,
Thanks for contacting us.
We don't work on cars with Edelbrock carbs. It's not worth our time or your money. If you'd like, we can install a new Holley HP carb and dial it in perfectly for you. However, our shop is full and we wouldn't be able to do the work for a couple of weeks. Feel free to call if you'd like to make an appointment.
Sincerely,
Mike"

Once I got done laughing, I realized there is quite the contingent out there which has no respect for Edelbrock's product. Do y'all think that if you're using them on Fords or Chevrolets they're great, but they just don't do well on Mopars? Do some Edelbrock carbs simply resent being installed on a Mopar engine?

If it's a 750 Ede carb, I'm with that shop. I will not under any circumstances work on a 1407/1411 Ede, period. The rest of them are doable.

I still prefer to work on holleys.
 
For a general rule.
Auto cars=Vacuum Secondary
4spd cars=Double Pumper

I like Edelbrocks. I can take them apart,adjust,and tune them blind folded. I like their dependability,and consistency. Can you squeeze out a couple more ponies with a Holley? Pretty much. But for day to day street cruising,with
their dependability, I think they are a great carb. I run a 500,600,& 750 on my cars,all with great sucess.I also like the fact that all the factory linkages hook up as designed. Basically it's a Carter.
I would have no problem putting a 750 Ede on your 440.
What ever carb you chose,go with a vacuum secondary carb,with your auto.
PS:Ignition first !
 
An aside, I didn't realize the 750 Edelbrocks had such a bad rep. What in your opinion is their major problem?
 
A spreadbore (ThermoQuad or Quadrajet) is best for driveability and mileage, but good used ones are rare. I vaguely recall reading of new Quadrajets. TBI would be even better, but more complicated. With either carb or TBI, you need an O2 sensor or you are "flying blind". Best is a wideband kit and prices have greatly dropped.
 
What plugs ya running, maybe to cold. What shape are your plug wires in and the complete timing picture needs to be figured out, ie initial, full with mechanical, all in RPM. You see before throwing rocks at the Eddy there are a ton of other things need to be ironed out and I'd start out with a 750 even with your build.
 
An aside, I didn't realize the 750 Edelbrocks had such a bad rep. What in your opinion is their major problem?

Yea, I'd like to know that one as well.

I totally agree......and lets not forget factory 440's also came with as much as 1250 CFM ( six pack), and you did'nt have to race them! They were daily drivers! I own one. LOL!

6 packs are rated at a 2bbl. Each for that total. If rated as a 4bbl. they would equal 780CFM.
 
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