Cooling System Additive

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JoeSBP said:
This is flat out not true. At 50/50, the heat transfer capabilities are reduced by approximately 20-25% compared to straight distilled water. Any of the various surfacant products are going to increase the wetting effect of water, and further increase that margin. A simple internet search will find numerous sources that state this.
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But with the right radiator, fan , cap, shroud, etc... a 50/50 mix will work great. And reduces corrosion, and won't freeze.
 
before you try any snake oils, try a tablespoon of Calgon. No kidding. Its a surficant (sp?) as is water wetter, that reduces the surface tension, ie. it gets 'closer' to the cylinder bores and doesnt foam up. Plus its probably free from under your sink. give it a try, only harm will be a cleaner water jacket when you flush it. only thing Prestone does is reduce freezing temp, increase boiling temp, prevent rust and lubricate water pump...did I say only? Old skool is distilled water and Mopar rust inhibitor.
 
69_340_GTS said:
But with the right radiator, fan , cap, shroud, etc... a 50/50 mix will work great. And reduces corrosion, and won't freeze.
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I fully agree, but flushing the coolant, and running distilled water and a surfacant is much cheaper and easier.

I run straight distilled water and surfacant with a corrosion inhibiter in the summer, then late fall drain 30% and top off with concentrate ethlyene glycol.

Early spring I flush, and restart with the distilled water/surfacant/corrosion inhibitor.

I have seen the back to back improvement in cooling while putting bikes on a dyno.


BUT, as stated, this won't correct the issue of a cooling system with inadequate volume, coolant flow restrictions, misdirected airflow, inadequate system pressure, etc.
 
Do you guys think that coolant manufacturers would have chemists dedicate their lives to producing coolants that needed 4 oz. of whatever to help their product work.

..for straight water a bit of soap will do the trick.
 
For the record -- I plan to run tap water and some type of additive - Water Wetter, Purple Ice, Lucas Super Cool -- OR -- ?? (TBD), during the summer months, because it works for me. - Yes I probably should spend more $$, and find the real root of the problem. -- In the cold season, I will use 50% water and 50% anti freeze. -- Thanks to all for the input - several good ideas were presented, and that's the real value of this Forum.
 
tap water is good when you are using a descaler and flushing it out, but I strongly advise paying a few bucks at walmart for the jugs of distilled water for its final fill
 
There are strongly held opinions here so i'm not sure my input will be worth much but as a person who worked for a heat exchanger manufacturer for over 20 years, I can say with certainty that pure water will perform the best. I have no experience with 'water wetter' so I will concede it may provide an improvement. A 50/50 EG water mix required the heat exchangers we made to have 3% more surface area for the same performance as straight water. Straight water, however, will corrode iron and the rust layer will quickly degrade efficiency. So, the small reduction of thermal performance from using automotive antifreeze is a small price to pay for freeze/corrosion/pump seal protection.
Incidently, Ethylene glycol ls highly corrosive- more so than water. It is the additives that quell it's corrosiveness and provide lubrication. Back in the 'old days' you could add a small can of a rust preventative product to straight water that would keep the water crystal clear but these products (containing chromates) have been banned for over 50 years as hazardous to the enviroment. I've not heard of a suitable replacement.
I'm with 67Dart273. Find/fix the real problem. Collapsing lower hose? Bad thermostat? Damaged water pump?
 
^^Thank you^^ I'm not saying that some of these products will NOT make a difference, good or bad. What I'm saying is "SIGNIFICANT" meaning, if your car runs too hot with water, there is no known coolant additive that will magically get it down to "tolerable."

This is a decent read........

dow.com/heattrans/pdfs/DispellingTheMyths.pdf

The one condition under which antifreeze might be better than water is if it's actually boiling. Boiling water does not efficiently transfer heat that is, the actual transfer. But so far as heat transfer, water is better. Water has a higher specific heat than does most any other coolant I'm aware of. This in essence is the "heat holding" capacity of a substance.
 

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I can't see running water though and then draining every year. PITA. We have to do that with the circle track cars because antifreeze isn't allowed. 50/50 mix of the correct anti freeze for your application. Green for iron/copper. Orange or Blue for aluminum mixed 50/50. I always buy the premixed so it's ready to go when needed.
 
Biggest thing is used distilled water not tap water it eat metal. .I've used water wetter before in my street duster ..

In my dump trucks it's distilled water and a good antifreeze. .almost 5 gals. Of each
 
RPMagoo said:
-- Read this.
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Not going to argue. If it's on the internet it has to be true. Even if it is true, ethyl glycol is a lubricant. Lubricants reduce friction. Friction creates heat. Therefore, if I remember my physics properly, adding coolant to your water will reduce friction and heat. However, the best explanation I have seen is this:

As water boils it expands and also releases gases dissolved in it.Gas expansion due to heat is way more than liquid expansion. Your car cooling system is a closed system and this expansion causes pressure build up. At some point some thing has to give way, either the water pump, hose, radiator or hopefully radiator cap.

Coolant is made up of mainly TEG ( Tri ethylene glycol) and silicates. TEG has a boiling point above 320f and low expansion due to heat.

Either way in my case it's a moot point. I live in Minnesota. If I don't use antifreeze, I'm buying a new block. I'm assuming you live in a more comfortable climate, which makes me a little jealous.
 
I run Evans in my 84 & 85 M-B diesel cars. So far no issues. Jay Leno uses it in his entire fleet. My son drove the 1984 over the I-5 pass to LA last summer and it only briefly hit 105 C, then decreased (redline at 120 C). That is the max I ever saw when running 50/50 green stuff. I hear manufacturers test new cars on that stretch on a hot day as a "worst-case" condition for the U.S. Otherwise, it always runs close to the 82 C thermostat. My 1985 has a slight issue. It seems to want to run almost 90 C all the time, perhaps since I changed to Evans (not sure), but also now in the winter even on cold mornings, so I suspect a problem with the thermostat (or dash gage). My son has that car now, so little time to investigate. The symptoms don't suggest the change to Evans is the reason.

I also converted our 2002 3.8L minivan to Evans last summer while my wife was away for a month. It has rear heat, so more involved. I also changed all heater hoses (it has many) to silicone since 15 yrs old and I don't want to lose the valuable Evans. No issues with overheating. In all cars, I allowed a long time so the water could evaporate. The heater cores are toughest. I first blew them out, then ran some ethanol thru, then left on an "apnia pump" (for fat people to sleep, not me, bought cheap at garage sale) puffing thru for a week until no more alcohol smell. Best way to clear the heater core is to connect air, hold the other tube w/ thumb to build pressure, then release to get a forceful puff, repeat. Also works for radiators. No need to remove block plugs (aka "freeze"), though if doing so anyway, that is an opportune time to switch. Of course, I removed the block drains and radiator hoses, water pump, ... and puffed thru the block until no water, then ran the engine for short intervals to heat the block. Before all that, flush all corrosion. I use water w/ citric acid. You don't want to invest in Evans for a rusty system. Once installed, it should never rust again. It would be a bad day if the rear plug on my small block rusted thru. I have been airing out my 64 Valiant engine for many months while doing other things (plus new heater core), then Evans. If you convert, smartest to wait for when you are doing other jobs. A lot of people denigrate Evans, mostly those who don't use it. Same for the silicone brake fluid I use in most cars. I am not a hater, but must admit to hating corrosion.
 
earthmover said:
Biggest thing is used distilled water not tap water it eat metal. .I've used water wetter before in my street duster ..

In my dump trucks it's distilled water and a good antifreeze. .almost 5 gals. Of each
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This is why I buy premix. I can store it and use it as needed easily and you know it's right.
 
The Dart heats up a little when in stop and go when it's 90-95 degrees out so I try some water wetter a few years back and it did make a difference. I changed the coolant lately and decided to try Purple Ice. Didn't read the directions before buying it. Took 1.5 bottles verses one bottle Water Wetter and the directions say you have to add it again every year or 30,000 miles. Water Wetter didn't say that. I asked Purple why and am waiting for them to get back to me. I wanted to know what is wearing out. Just the rust inhibitors and/or the surfactant.
 
This thread makes me laugh, just like 160 degree thermostats and flex blade fans make me laugh.

Have fun with that exploded block from running without coolant, when you leave it out over night in the winter there in Wherever, PA.

Every hobby needs it's snake oils I guess. :roll:
 
PoisonDart74 said:
-- This thread makes me laugh, ---
Have fun with that exploded block from running without coolant, when you leave it out over night in the winter there in Wherever, PA. --
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-- Not stupid enough to do that - Read My "For the record" post. -
 

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RPMagoo said:
For the record -- I plan to run tap water and some type of additive - Water Wetter, Purple Ice, Lucas Super Cool -- OR -- ?? (TBD), during the summer months, because it works for me. - Yes I probably should spend more $$, and find the real root of the problem. -- In the cold season, I will use 50% water and 50% anti freeze. -- Thanks to all for the input - several good ideas were presented, and that's the real value of this Forum.
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Be careful with the water you use... many tap waters have so much mineral content that it will put a LOT of deposits in the engine and radiator and you will end up with a bigger cooling problem. It would be much wiser to go to the grocery store and buy distilled water; it costs very little by the gallon. Any additive that you list above is not going to correct high mineral content in the water.

BTW, Evans waterless coolant is just a simple glycol based coolant, nothing much different than regular antifreeze, so it is more of a product application 'discovery' than a special product. The reports of the heads running slightly hotter on average are correct; the glycol has a lower specific heat than water or a water/glycol mix, and so it transfers less heat per gallon of flow, but the average system temp is ultimately set by the heat transfer out of the system, mainly at the radiator. It does boil at a higher temp so getting all the water out does help lower any head temp hot spots, but this benefit is helpful in just certain engine applications. Like any glycol, Evans will break down with time and have to be changed out, just like regular anti-freeze.
 
PoisonDart74 said:
This thread makes me laugh, just like flex blade fans make me laugh.

Every hobby needs it's snake oils I guess. :roll:
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..some work as claimed
mopar factory flex fans are normal idling and move lots of air,but
completely flat at less than 2500 rpm or cruising speed were a fan is not needed.


i think we should have a sticky on Snake oil though...
 
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