Crank end play, destroyed converter, 408 nightmare

Small Block Mopar Engine

  1. stixx

    stixx FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

    Messages:
    623
    Likes Received:
    402
    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Location:
    Southern Germany
    Local Time:
    8:12 AM
    RAPOM = Mopar
    Those are very likely the Speedmaster heads...
     
  2. nm9stheham

    nm9stheham Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,704
    Likes Received:
    2892
    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2013
    Location:
    Waynesboro, VA
    Local Time:
    3:12 AM
    Tnx sir. Your case is my reminder of why 91 octane is a definite step down in octane. Then AJ comes along and messes that all up LOL.
     
  3. AJ/FormS

    AJ/FormS 68 B'cuda fb, Form S clone ... 367/A833/3.55s FABO Gold Member

    Messages:
    16,098
    Likes Received:
    4913
    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2014
    Location:
    South-Central Manitoba,Canada, 900ftelevation
    Local Time:
    2:12 AM
    87E10fastgas@up to 185psi (so far),@.034Q,running a minimum coolant temp of 205*F, with full timing of 34*delayed to 3400rpm, and at 930ft elevation.
    I keep preaching; just because it idles great with 20* initial, doesn't mean you should run 20* initial. It makes setting up the advance curve really tricky, with those aftermarket mini-wire-gauge springs. You just can't run 1969 timing curves any more.
    Nobody drives at 750 rpm. Who cares what the idle timing is. Get the Transfers synced up and whatever timing it takes is what it gets.
    Get the timing set right for where you drive, and let the rest be what it will be. You'll never miss 7 or 10 or 12 or whatever horsepower on the street with a 360 and street gears ....... because the tires can't handle hardly half power in first gear anyway, and 3.23s will get you close to 60mph@6000. You don't need 400hp to do that. Nor 350, probably not even 300. I mean 340s regularly burned those Polyglass tires to 60 mph or at least all the way thru first gear. And they did it with the fattest radials you could put in the Darts as well.
    My timing is fast up to 28*@2800, then lazy to 34* at 3400, badaboom..... But I have a manual trans with a 10.97 starter gear, so 2800 is only 20 mph in first gear, and the engine is very lightly loaded. And that same starter gear will get me 50@7000, still very lightly loaded,cuz........... the tires are still spinning. If that car ever got traction and actually had to work in first gear,IDK if the results would be the same. I would test that theory out, but it spins those crappy BFGs all the way thru second too. Sorry I can't be of more help,lol.
    Everybody just get you some BFGs and problem solved....... or Coopers, they did the same........ or BFG-Drs, they did the same. lol, sorry. I'm having waaaay too much fun,lol..

    I'm not bragging on the engine; she's just a plain-Jane 367 with a 230 cam
    I'm not bragging on any perceived engine building,or tuning prowess; I'm just a gearhead like most of you guys. But
    what I am doing is ragging on the tires and rear suspension, that makes spinning to 80 mph possible. I would change that, but since 1999, it's been just too much fun; it's what I built the car to do; I don't care that it 60fts in the 2.2 to 2.4 range,lol.
    Wait; did I just get off topic again?
    Oh yeah; timing
    Sorry OP for muddying up your thread, say the word and I can now hit delete, thanks to the new button.
    Ok so timing; I get that for a racer timing is crucial, cuz he wants to win.
    But most of us are streeters and our rigs operate at other than, 5000 to 6500 at WOT; so our engines have vastly different timing requirements. Starting with 20* at 750 rpm is IMO, just so wrong.
    My very hi compression engine was far easier to tune with a two-stage curve; it is fast up to around 2800, and then I slowed it down to stay out of detonation, and limited it to less than what I thought might be optimum... then I spent a few hours getting to know this engine, and then I snuck up on the final power-timing.Since it seemed to run the same everywhere between 32 and 36, I just set it to 32 for that summer. Next summer I set it to 34* and that is where it has been since about 2004.
    And here's the thing about idle timing; the more you give her, the less you will hear the cam..... and everybody wants to hear the cam..... right? So back it up to 5* and enjoy the lumpiddy lump idle,lol. Ok no don't do that,lol. Just set the Transfer slot sync, and then set the idle speed with timing and idle-air bypass. The Idle timing will generally fall into the range of 10 to 16,so just let it be what it will be. It will make curving the D so much easier.
    BTW my 367 now has accumulated over 100,000 miles or so, and except for one half-tank, has never seen other than 87E10. IMO, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this fuel. It is not hard on my fuel system either, nor hard on my 750DP. All it takes to run it is a slight timing delay to 34* @3400rpm. There is a good chance I could bring it in a bit sooner, but the engine makes so much power/torque as is, that I just quit at that number.
    With a manual trans, you have to be careful to not bring in too much too early on account of the bigger cam will A) make it very jumpy down low; and we don't have a fluid coupling for those pressure spikes to get lost in; and B) the car will act like it has an on/off switch attached to the gas pedal, wanting to jump ahead with the slightest pedal, and C) a manual trans car with street-type gears, spends a lotta time in the low-rpm zone, and the engine is married to the rearend, so this kind of uncivilized behaviour, IMO, is unacceptable. It is very easy to over-time a manual trans street car.
    And finally, here in Manitoba,Canada, I am at 930 ft elevation, and this doesn't change much for hundreds of miles in most directions, and then only a a small percentage.Plus our summer daytime highs,vary in temp only a few degrees, with a day-night difference of no more than 25*F, usually closer to 15 degrees........ So my tune could be pretty mean. However, I choose to be just a lil fat. It seems to quiet the dual 3" cannons out the back bumper................ lol
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
    • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
    • furrystump

      furrystump Well-Known Member

      Messages:
      756
      Likes Received:
      426
      Joined:
      Nov 13, 2004
      Local Time:
      8:12 AM
      I have had issues with that head gasket. They say no need to retorqued the head. I have popped two of them at about 10:1, changed over to torquing them and letting sit overnight. Then back off a 1/4 turn and retorqued them one at a time in order. No more issues. Now I run cometics.
       
      • Like Like x 1
      • MOPAROFFICIAL

        MOPAROFFICIAL Well-Known Member

        Messages:
        3,514
        Likes Received:
        2483
        Joined:
        Jun 1, 2016
        Location:
        breakwater
        Local Time:
        12:12 AM
        God does AJ braggardly ramble on.
        You're "not bragging" ,nope.. not while you refer to your motor as "she".
        When you REALLY run your car hard...let us know. Otherwise save the novel for a pm.


        The 1008 seem to come off with a 3/8 ratchet... never liked that. No issues with the 8553 , yet... but I dont run them at over 10.1 comp.
         
        • Like Like x 1
        • skep419

          skep419 It's only money, you can always make more

          Messages:
          3,543
          Likes Received:
          1178
          Joined:
          Sep 18, 2008
          Location:
          Minesoooota
          Local Time:
          2:12 AM
          I enjoy the winded Aj posts. To each their own I guess.
           
          • Agree Agree x 2
          • MOPAROFFICIAL

            MOPAROFFICIAL Well-Known Member

            Messages:
            3,514
            Likes Received:
            2483
            Joined:
            Jun 1, 2016
            Location:
            breakwater
            Local Time:
            12:12 AM
            Pay attention and you'll see others info become his own. His dynamic was lower....then it became the same as someone else's. To each his own indeed. IF you really pay attention... you notice these things.
             
          • fishmens67

            fishmens67 Well-Known Member

            Messages:
            5,707
            Likes Received:
            2532
            Joined:
            Nov 10, 2012
            Location:
            idaho
            Local Time:
            2:12 AM
            ode to the mighty 367. lol
             
            • Like Like x 2
            • MOPAROFFICIAL

              MOPAROFFICIAL Well-Known Member

              Messages:
              3,514
              Likes Received:
              2483
              Joined:
              Jun 1, 2016
              Location:
              breakwater
              Local Time:
              12:12 AM
              LOL!
               
            • famous bob

              famous bob mopar misfit

              Messages:
              12,748
              Likes Received:
              3606
              Joined:
              Aug 14, 2011
              Location:
              okla
              Local Time:
              2:12 AM
              I built an aprox 600 horse sbc that I had trouble blowing good head gaskets on. Don't remember who told me this , but when u torque ur heads down in increments, leave the last one that finishes it, until the next morning or evening . Gives things time to relax , before final torque , very seldom have to retorque if ur using good gaskets. ----- Worked for me !
               
              • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
              • AJ/FormS

                AJ/FormS 68 B'cuda fb, Form S clone ... 367/A833/3.55s FABO Gold Member

                Messages:
                16,098
                Likes Received:
                4913
                Joined:
                Jan 19, 2014
                Location:
                South-Central Manitoba,Canada, 900ftelevation
                Local Time:
                2:12 AM
                Jus saying;
                My engine went together in 1999 at zero-deck,with Eddies and ARP headbolts and their lube.
                The first iteration was with the 292/292/108 cam and .028 gaskets; Scr was 11.1 @a tic over 185 on my gauge. I've been saying 11.3Scr for a long time but I just did the math, and I think it's only 11.1; so sorry guys I don't know when I screwed up.
                I torqued them down in several steps; 50%,then; 80%,95 and 105%. The last pull was a 1/4 turn release and then pull to 105%. No retorque. By late summer of 2000 I had decided that cam didn't suit my driving style, and so I sold it. That winter,2000/2001, I pulled that engine apart and found the .028s migrating into the valley, but not yet leaking. I blamed the gaskets.
                Next,I installed a Hughes 223/110 cam and 1008s.The Scr with the thicker gasket came to ~10.8 with pressure about the same at that time, but now with a lil more Q. no biggie.
                About 12 months later, I freshened the engine, and did same. But with new 1008s
                About 12 months later, I freshened again but reused the previous gaskets, no retorque
                About 12 months later, you guessed it, same,but with reusing previous 1008s, no retorque.
                Now we're into 2004. and the 223 cam died. So I pumped up the Scr by decking and installed the next bigger Hughes cam,a 230/110 and the pressure dropped just a lil.But the Q went down. And again I installed the used gaskets with no retorque.
                Now it's 15 years later and the engine is at ~10.95Scr and 180psi with .034Q...... and still on used gaskets.
                Jus saying.

                But see; My idle-timing is 14*, and I slowed my power-timing to 28*@2800,with a two-stage curve, which delayed the all-in to finish at 32@3400. And I burn 87E10; you know; the stuff everybody calls skunk-pee..
                That 367 combo went 93 in the Eighth ............... on that skunk-pee
                Jus saying.


                Ode to the mighty 367
                Mr Wallace says;
                Tell me again why I should want a stroker...... jus saying.
                Oh and BTW, that was shifting at 7000,some would say; waaaaaaay past the power peak and a total waste of engine; and the tach was sorta stuck on 7000, ie spinning all the way. Imagine if I had had traction and played the power-peak.

                jus saying...........
                 
                Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
              • cojohnso

                cojohnso Well-Known Member

                Messages:
                97
                Likes Received:
                88
                Joined:
                Mar 25, 2019
                Location:
                Minneapolis, MN
                Local Time:
                2:12 AM
                I've always wondered how that is even possible? Not having seated all the way back? But I've also seen ground up pumps because of this. Mostly due to those who bolted converter first. It's not like the flex plate adjusts? Just never have been able to visualize.
                 
              • yellow rose

                yellow rose Doctor of Thinkology.

                Messages:
                17,023
                Likes Received:
                13219
                Joined:
                Jun 19, 2015
                Location:
                Living on the razors edge
                Local Time:
                12:12 AM

                It happens. The input of the converter doesn't get all the way into the pump. And you are right, it can kill the thrust and wipe out the pump in the trans too. The thrust by far more sensitive to load against it on startup especially.

                You can tell if the converter isn't all the way into the pump. You should be pulling the converter up to the flex plate by a long way. If you barely have to move the converter just a little bit, it's not in the pump and will kill the thrust and if you have my luck, kills the pump in the trans too.
                 
              • fishy68

                fishy68 Tyr Fryr's Inc. FABO Gold Member

                Messages:
                16,801
                Likes Received:
                804
                Joined:
                Jan 11, 2005
                Location:
                Central, IL (Hooterville)
                Local Time:
                2:12 AM
                I have a hard time believing it was from the converter not being seated in the pump gears especially when he said he put nearly 500 miles on it. If the converter wasn't engaged properly in the pump how would it be possible to spin the gears in the pump to make pressure??? Plus, every time I saw someone do that it immediately trashed the pump gears. JMHO
                 
                • Agree Agree x 1
                • 1974scamp

                  1974scamp Active Member

                  Messages:
                  34
                  Likes Received:
                  1
                  Joined:
                  Feb 20, 2015
                  Location:
                  Austria
                  Local Time:
                  2:12 AM
                  20190422_151835.jpg
                  on the driver side number #1 is also the worst, could there be a reason that cylinder #1 and #2 are the worst by far?

                  On monday ill take the whole block to a mopar specialist who built also a lot of mopar race engines and let him have a look on the whole engine.
                   
                • 1974scamp

                  1974scamp Active Member

                  Messages:
                  34
                  Likes Received:
                  1
                  Joined:
                  Feb 20, 2015
                  Location:
                  Austria
                  Local Time:
                  2:12 AM
                  I finished the engine about 2 years ago and put it bolted to the trans into the car

                  then i put not much miles on it due to overheating and some other issues

                  then it destroyed the first converter

                  took out the trans with the engine still in car

                  took the trans to the guy who "fixed it" and put it back into the car

                  then i drove the few miles, engine still really hot and on the edge of overheating, really high oil pressure on wot sometimes up to 100psi

                  now i took out the engine because i wanted to bring the compression down with the head gasket (which is a shitty idea i know now), install the xe275 cam and do some other modifications
                  also the trans slipped from 2nd to 3rd gear


                  so with the first converter i had really low milage on it
                   
                • RAMM

                  RAMM Well-Known Member

                  Messages:
                  1,559
                  Likes Received:
                  1221
                  Joined:
                  Nov 22, 2010
                  Location:
                  Ontario, Canada
                  Local Time:
                  3:12 AM
                  If you want to hedge your bet on the thrust fix then drill a small hole through the thrust face intersecting the main oil feed while you have it down the the bare block. It won't save it if the crank is being forced forward by unnatural driveline forces but it will provide pressurized oil where it is needed.

                  Sorry for your troubles OP but this is a classic case of a poorly matched/machined/assembled combo. Also for your transmission get in touch with John Cope @ CRT, I have never had a Mopar Auto work right or last until I used his products.

                  Thrustfix.jpg
                   
                  • Like Like x 2
                  • Daves69

                    Daves69 Well-Known Member

                    Messages:
                    4,194
                    Likes Received:
                    2221
                    Joined:
                    Feb 20, 2011
                    Location:
                    WestOfChi
                    Local Time:
                    2:12 AM
                    Well, one way is to actually have the converter set all the way into the pump and not secure it so it can't move forward on you as you're muscling it around to install. At start up the converter can shear those little lugs clean off a stock pump gerotor. (I think it cost like 27 bucks for a new one back then)
                    I'm thinking stock pumps may just be pressed, sintered, sized, and Blanchard ground powder metal. No match for a steel converter pump drive tube.
                     
                  • nm9stheham

                    nm9stheham Well-Known Member

                    Messages:
                    10,704
                    Likes Received:
                    2892
                    Joined:
                    Dec 20, 2013
                    Location:
                    Waynesboro, VA
                    Local Time:
                    3:12 AM
                    Could just be the block machining... it can get high and low spots. And the fuel distribution in the carb/intake can make some cylinders more prone to detonation than others. And there are variations in bolt torques, etc. So could be due to a lot of reasons IMHO.
                     
                  • cojohnso

                    cojohnso Well-Known Member

                    Messages:
                    97
                    Likes Received:
                    88
                    Joined:
                    Mar 25, 2019
                    Location:
                    Minneapolis, MN
                    Local Time:
                    2:12 AM
                    I agree. The car might move some. But you see a problem immediately.
                     
                    • Like Like x 1
                    • cojohnso

                      cojohnso Well-Known Member

                      Messages:
                      97
                      Likes Received:
                      88
                      Joined:
                      Mar 25, 2019
                      Location:
                      Minneapolis, MN
                      Local Time:
                      2:12 AM
                      I have a friend that I believe didn't properly seat converter. I'm going to insist we jack up and crawl under. Unbolt converter. And reseat. I'm assuming 727 is like any trans? If seated should spin gears. If not? You would know by sound and inconsistent spin?
                       
                    • famous bob

                      famous bob mopar misfit

                      Messages:
                      12,748
                      Likes Received:
                      3606
                      Joined:
                      Aug 14, 2011
                      Location:
                      okla
                      Local Time:
                      2:12 AM
                      I skip them ----------
                       
                    • famous bob

                      famous bob mopar misfit

                      Messages:
                      12,748
                      Likes Received:
                      3606
                      Joined:
                      Aug 14, 2011
                      Location:
                      okla
                      Local Time:
                      2:12 AM
                      Speaking of convertors, I saw part of an automotive show on TV , where they drove the convertor in the trans. with a big mallet , before installing it !
                       
                    • MopaR&D

                      MopaR&D Nerd Member FABO Gold Member

                      Messages:
                      3,932
                      Likes Received:
                      768
                      Joined:
                      Jan 4, 2008
                      Location:
                      Fort Collins, CO
                      Local Time:
                      1:12 AM
                      Huh, musta been a Chevy (I hope)
                       
                      • Like Like x 1
                      • famous bob

                        famous bob mopar misfit

                        Messages:
                        12,748
                        Likes Received:
                        3606
                        Joined:
                        Aug 14, 2011
                        Location:
                        okla
                        Local Time:
                        2:12 AM
                        Didn`t catch enough to tell what it was, but wasn't a mopar -------
                         
                      1. This site uses cookies to help personalize content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
                        By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.