Crank pulleys will not bolt to balancer

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eestatic

eestatic

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Here's what I'm working with.

1965 motor (273) replaced with a 1974 (318) into my '65 Barracuda.

Just installed the 318 this weekend and while trying to get the crank pulley assembly bolted to the balancer, one hole will not line up while the rest of them do!

I set the pulleys back to back on each other and I have one hole that is a crescent shaped sliver off....

I ordered a 318 balancer when I started my 318 build some time ago.

Whats the deal on the hole alignment being off like that?

If you look carefully, you can see how much the hole alignment is off!!

Is my only option to get a balancer for a 273 and will it work on the 318 so I can use my original pulley set up?

Thanks as always FABO

Dennis
 

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Bad Sport said:
Just oblong that hole in the pulley a bit so it will bolt on.

Got a die grinder?
Click to expand...

X2, as that much isn't going to make a bit of difference.
A mototool can take that much off in 2 minutes.
A chain saw chain file will do it pretty quick too.
 
eestatic said:
Whats the deal on the hole alignment being off like that?
Click to expand...

Some years used a symmetrical bolt pattern, while others used a non-symmetrical bolt pattern.

You are mixing the two.

But as stated above, grind the one hole that is off to be egg shaped enough to let a bolt go into it.
 
What front end engine set-up are you using?

Are you using the 65 timing chain cover and cast iron water pump?

Or with the 74 318 timing chain cover and aluminum water pump?

Run the balancer for the 318, but if you are using the 65 273 timing cover, just remark the TDC mark as it's different from 65 to 74...

Are you using the original radiator from the 65 car? Then the 65 timing cover should be used with the cast iron water pump so the radiator hoses will be in the correct locations.
 
Most new balancers are drilled with evenly-spaced holes. As the others said, just ovalize the hole in the pullies.
 
Just one of the differences we run into. File it out like others said, simple enough.
Differences at the trans mating may not be so simple to conquer. Good luck
 
RedFish said:
Just one of the differences we run into. File it out like others said, simple enough.
Differences at the trans mating may not be so simple to conquer. Good luck
Click to expand...

I did use the "bushing" for the torque converter-to-crank from Torqueflite Pat Blaise. :cheers:
 
krazykuda said:
What front end engine set-up are you using?

Are you using the 65 timing chain cover and cast iron water pump?

Or with the 74 318 timing chain cover and aluminum water pump?

Run the balancer for the 318, but if you are using the 65 273 timing cover, just remark the TDC mark as it's different from 65 to 74...

Are you using the original radiator from the 65 car? Then the 65 timing cover should be used with the cast iron water pump so the radiator hoses will be in the correct locations.
Click to expand...

I'm using the 318 timing cover & 273 water pump so the hoses will line up to the original radiator.
 
eestatic said:
I'm using the 318 timing cover & 273 water pump so the hoses will line up to the original radiator.
Click to expand...

Then the timing marks will be blocked by the lower hose.

I would use the 273 cover, cast iron water pump, and the 318 vibration damper.

Find TDC and then mark the damper for the mark on the old timing chain cover with white out or white or silver paint. It will make tuning it up easier.

Just keep the balancer from the 318 and then use the old 273 stuff on it...
 
krazykuda said:
Then the timing marks will be blocked by the lower hose.

I would use the 273 cover, cast iron water pump, and the 318 vibration damper.

Find TDC and then mark the damper for the mark on the old timing chain cover with white out or white or silver paint. It will make tuning it up easier.

Just keep the balancer from the 318 and then use the old 273 stuff on it...
Click to expand...

Thanks for pointing that out!

As my luck would have have it, I already had everything assembled [318] timing cover on and motor is now in car. I did look last night at the "hidden" timing marks under the the 318 timing cover behind the water pump radiator hose outlet.:banghead:

Without hoses belts brackets, ect. on I can currently see almost all of scale up to 10-12 deg. before it disappears..

But with the mild cam, the timing mark is going to be pretty much further "off scale",
where no timing marks exist..?

Looking at the the 273 set up with the tab bolted to the bottom of the water pump, if I went the route of the 273 balancer that still leaves timing much to extrapolation as the 273 tab will also be no where near where desired timing will be?
 
eestatic said:
Looking at the the 273 set up with the tab bolted to the bottom of the water pump, if I went the route of the 273 balancer that still leaves timing much to extrapolation as the 273 tab will also be no where near where desired timing will be?
Click to expand...

If you don't have a dial back timing light, just put timing tape on the balancer, it will have the advanced degrees.
 
I'm having a mental moment here but when putting tape on the balancer, you then reference the degree increments to the fixed timing "TDC" mark on timing chain cover or timing tab?
 
eestatic said:
I'm having a mental moment here but when putting tape on the balancer, you then reference the degree increments to the fixed timing "TDC" mark on timing chain cover or timing tab?
Click to expand...


Find TDC with a TDC stop tool and then make a mark for TDC where the bolt on bracket 0° mark is. then use the bolt on timing tab for timing the car.

You can line up the timing tape with the true TDC on the original 318 balancer to match the location of the 0° mark for the bolt on timing tab.


I would keep the original vibration damper with it's matching crank.


TDC Tool:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-900189/overview/
 
When I had the heads off and motor was on stand, I rotated engine until piston was at TDC. I put a steel level across head (zero decked) and when piston was at top, the timing mark was lined up exactly w/mark on cover. I could rotate crank back & forward and the "dead zone" with no up or down movement basically seemed to be the thickness of the timing mark.

That appeared to me to be fairly accurate.
 
To find TDC, best to mark where you have a certain piston drop on a dial indicator (say 50 mil), on both sides, then mark TDC halfway between the two. At TDC, the relation between crank angle and rise goes away, i.e. angular sensitivity => 0. You could rotate the crank ~2 deg around TDC and not notice the piston move.
 
krazykuda said:
Find TDC with a TDC stop tool and then make a mark for TDC where the bolt on bracket 0° mark is. then use the bolt on timing tab for timing the car.

You can line up the timing tape with the true TDC on the original 318 balancer to match the location of the 0° mark for the bolt on timing tab.


I would keep the original vibration damper with it's matching crank.


TDC Tool:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-900189/overview/
Click to expand...

(1) Not sure if I follow you but the original vibration damper with it's matching crank is still on the old 273.

(2) I need to use the 273 cast water pump to match the bottom radiator hose.

(3) If I used the 273 balancer w/the 318 timing cover, would I be able to see the original timing tab/mark(s) bolted to btm of pump?

(4) Are the 273 balancers still available new?

(5) The woodruff key position is different on the 318 vs 273 by how many degrees?

(6) If new balancers are not available for the year-specific 273, are balancers rebuildable and what are their merits of performance and longevity?

(7) Apologies for being a pest but greatly appreciate y'alls help as always!

Thanks fabo
 
eestatic said:
(1) Not sure if I follow you but the original vibration damper with it's matching crank is still on the old 273.

(2) I need to use the 273 cast water pump to match the bottom radiator hose.

(3) If I used the 273 balancer w/the 318 timing cover, would I be able to see the original timing tab/mark(s) bolted to btm of pump?

(4) Are the 273 balancers still available new?

(5) The woodruff key position is different on the 318 vs 273 by how many degrees?

(6) If new balancers are not available for the year-specific 273, are balancers rebuildable and what are their merits of performance and longevity?

(7) Apologies for being a pest but greatly appreciate y'alls help as always!

Thanks fabo
Click to expand...


Not a problem, I've been through this many times.

I would keep the vibration damper that came with the engine that you are using, as that has the proper balance for your crankshaft.

A 65 273 has a forged crank, and the 74 318 has a cast crank. I'm not sure if they are balanced the same to where the balancers are interchangeable or not, so I play it safe and use the vibration damper for the engine and crank that are going in the car.

Now from 69 to 70 the timing chain cover changed, they went to the aluminum water pump, and flipped the timing marks to the opposite side. (about 90°).

What I would do is:

1) Use the original damper from the 74 318.

2) Use the 65 273 timing chain cover, water pump, and timing marker.

3) Put the engine to tdc with a piston stop tool and then mark a new tdc mark on the 318 damper to match up with the old 273 timing marks. I like to use white out, white or silver touch up paint to make the marks stand out better.

4) With the original 65 timing cover and cast iron water pump, then you can still use the alternator brackets that came in your car, also the power steering is made to bolt up to the cast iron water pump for that year also if equipped.

5) then use the radiator and hoses for the 65 273 application.

**********************

So in a nutshell run all the 273 front engine parts on the 318, but use the original 318 balancer and remark for the different tdc location on the damper to match the 65 273 marks on the timing cover tab....


I hope this clears it up for you, if not tell me where you are confused so I can try to explain it better....
 
You may also run into a small issue with the bolt pattern on the crank pulley and the vibration damper may have a slight mis-match. If you line it up correctly only one hole will be off, just make that egg shaped so the bolt can go into it and you'll be able to run the original pulleys on your car also....

Refer to this thread for more details, and ask any questions if you need to:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=320183
 
Good you are sticking w/ the cast-iron water pump. I used the later alum w.p. on my 273 (to match new radiator) and it caused a cascade of issues. I had to change to a later Federal p.s. pump w/ brackets, re-position my alternator and get creative w/ the belt routes, plus the extra 1" thickness made it hard to get a fan to clear the radiator. Crank damper thicknesses varied over the years (I think) and many combinations of pulleys, so can get very confusing.
 
BillGrissom said:
Good you are sticking w/ the cast-iron water pump. I used the later alum w.p. on my 273 (to match new radiator) and it caused a cascade of issues. I had to change to a later Federal p.s. pump w/ brackets, re-position my alternator and get creative w/ the belt routes, plus the extra 1" thickness made it hard to get a fan to clear the radiator. Crank damper thicknesses varied over the years (I think) and many combinations of pulleys, so can get very confusing.
Click to expand...

That's why I always recommend to keep the harmonic balancer that is originally for that engine, and then use all of the "older" front end engine parts... Just remark the balancer for the other timing marks...

Things tend to go together better that way...
 
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