Crate 360 vs DIY Built

[KramerSwinger70]

so my project 70 Dart will eventually have a 360 under the hood to replace the original /6. I have a 360 engine already from a 77 Cordoba. It turns over but I don't know the condition of the internals, if the block has any damage, ect. it needs a new ignition, exhaust, intake at least. It will likely need a full rebuild.

The direction im goin with for my car is a Pro-tourin style. Full RMS suspension, decent power and torque, good mpg so it can be a daily driver.

I saw in a catalog they have crate Magnum 360's for about $6k. granted I may save a few bucks just rebuilding my current engine, would I be better off with a brand new Dyno tested 0 mile Magnum over a 40 year old LA motor? The Magnum would likely get better mpg over the LA, right?

On top of that, what would you do about the transmission? new or used?

Thoughts? I appreciate the input!

 

[krazykuda]

I saw in a catalog they have crate Magnum 360's for about $6k. granted I may save a few bucks just rebuilding my current engine, would I be better off with a brand new Dyno tested 0 mile Magnum over a 40 year old LA motor? The Magnum would likely get better mpg over the LA, right?

On top of that, what would you do about the transmission? new or used?

Thoughts? I appreciate the input!

Here's my thoughts:

Are you sure that they dyno test the Magnum crate engines? I've never heard that..


No, the Magnum may not get better MPG than your Cordoba engine. My father had a 76 Charger with a 360 2 bbl. It had a 20 gallon gas tank and would get 20 MPG on the highway - 500 mile range between fill ups. We had to stop to pee before we needed gas on long road trips...

The 360 - 380 horsepower Magnum engines have big cams and single plane intake manifolds. They are more for top end power than low end power and economy. A dual plane intake is better for a street engine going for performance and economy.


I would recommend building the engine that you have (77 360).

In one of my engine building books by Larry Shepard (the Mopar engine guru from back in the old days - and he's good), Larry says that the best cam for the Mopar SB is the stock 360 2 bbl cam that is 252°/256° duration and .410"/.412" lift. I myself am going to build a 360 for my 66 Valiant wagon and am shooting to get 20 MPG, and that is the cam that I'm going to try, along with a set of Rhoades lifters.

I did build a 318 many years back with the stock 340 cam and Rhoades lifters. It was 9.2 compression and a stock 69 340 dual plane intake. In my 68 Barracuda fastback with 2.76 gears got 17.75 MPG more than once when I checked it. Not quite 20, so I think my next econo build will use the smaller 360 2 bbl cam with Rhoades lifters.


My old 318 idled at 24" vacuum with 318 heads on it, but I had overheating problems as I had 10.5 pistons in it. I replaced the 318 heads with a set of 77 360 heads and it only dropped down to 22.5" vacuum. I was able to run a 10.5" power valve and with the vacuum gauge in my dash was able to still accelerate on the highway and keep it above 11" vacuum to keep the power valve from kicking in - better fuel economy. It did perform well, but is no street racer. I once was pulled over by a cop after turning a corner and nailing it (no tire spin) and he commented that my car was pretty fast. I told him that this was just spare parts that I threw together and could do better...


Maybe a lock up trans and converter would help. I believe that the 77 Cordobas had the lock up trans. Did you happen to get the trans with the engine?


Here's how I would build your next engine (and how I'm building my Valiant engine):

Try to get 9.2 - 9.4 compression pistons, file fit the rings at minimum end of the tolerance for ring gaps. The stock 360 2 bbl cam with Rhoades lifters. Rebuild the heads and go with either 1.88" or 2.02" intakes (you can have them installed in the 77 360 heads), you don't need to go to 2.02" intakes if you don't want to, 1.88" will work for an economy engine. Edelbrock LD340 intake or Wiand Stealth intake part number 8022 for square bore carb, Holley 80457 600 vacuum secondary carb. If you want to run a spreadbore carb like a Thermoquad, then use the Waind Action Plus intake part # 8007. Then use stock 68-70 340 exhaust manifolds or headers, whichever you choose. Then run a 2 1/4" dual exhaust with an H-pipe.


Here's some info on the Rhoades lifters. They bleed down at idle and take out .015" lift and about 10° duration at idle, then "ramp up" and give full lift and duration of your cam by 3500 RPM. They help low end and mid range torque and horsepower, increase idle vacuum, and improve fuel economy. For the SB Mopar you will want Rhoades lfiters part # 2018. Here's an article on how they work, look at the second one half way down the page:

http://www.rhoadslifters.com/Pages/Articles.html


Here's where you can buy a set:

http://www.summitracing.com/search?SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=rhoades 2018


I would recommend rebuilding the '77 360 that you have. I feel that you would get better fuel economy than with the Magnum crate engine, they are built more for power than economy.


For your trans, I would have the original trans for your 77 360 rebuilt if you got it with the engine. It's difficult to find good trans builders, I found a guy in Detroit that does them right where the kickdown works properly. Some trans guys, the kickdown either shifts too early or too late and the trans don't last as long or perform as well. Find a good trans guy and rebuild the stock trans and have the original converter checked and run that if it is still good.

I prefer stock low stall converters over high stalls as they slip less and are better for economy than high stalls... But that's just my opinion - I'm more of an engine guy than a trans guy.

Good luck, we're all counting on you...

[ame]http://youtu.be/aB2yqeD0Nus[/ame]

 

[69conv]

If you don't want to build it yourself, before you buy a crate talk to mike at mrl (see ad to the right) You'll do much better than a crate! Top quality machining and everything is checked unlike a crate.

 

[moper]

See the other posts on crate engines...
They are a crapshoot as far as I'm concerned. There is no way a crate engine can be as good as a properly matched, custom built engine can be for what you want. You have a goal - would you rather fit a compromise engine in there or have a qualified builder talk to you and maximize the result to your goal?
You're in Ca - talk to OU812 here. That's Brian at Indio Motor machine. A Mopar guy and sharp, and not accross the country in terms of shipping.

 

[bad440]

build one or get mike at mrl to build you one.or maybe brian from imm.

 

[KramerSwinger70]

Wow what a response. I did get the matching trans for that engine so I guess I'll stick with what I got. Just guess I gotta be patient haha

 

[sport74]

I'm building a 408 stroker on a budget and I will have less in it than buying a 408 stroker from summit......I've shopped the for sale ad's regularly and got some awesome deals that saved me tons of coin. But it has taken a few months to get all the parts together and now I'm waiting for the machine shop to finish the block

 

[cudaracer]

A crate engine with a warranty will run you about $4K.
How miuch would it cost from MRL? I am guessing at least twice that.

 

[RustyRatRod]

You can build just as good an engine as anyone on the planet with research, time and planning. As easy as it is to build one, I think it's nothing more than laziness when someone farms it out. All I can say is, it must be nice to be able to carve 10K plus out of a budget just for one small piece of a hobby.

 

[Abodybomber]

A crate engine with a warranty will run you about $4K.
How miuch would it cost from MRL? I am guessing at least twice that.

I do retail auto parts,that warranty means nothing.......

 

[Woods74]

You can build just as good an engine as anyone on the planet with research, time and planning. As easy as it is to build one, I think it's nothing more than laziness when someone farms it out. All I can say is, it must be nice to be able to carve 10K plus out of a budget just for one small piece of a hobby.

Yup.

 

[pauly v.100]

I can attest that good mileage and mopar crate motors are nonexistant. Having said that, the early 360/380 crate that I bought as a quick replacement for my aerated 340 has been overall an excellent little motor. Out here 340s can be hard to come by and I wasn't interested in a 360. I have since found a good 340 block and am saving my pennies for a Bloomer stroker kit. I've been hammering on that crate motor for years now and it hasn't missed a beat. Bad part is that they are a lot more expensive now. I paid $4100 for it delivered to my door. -pauly

 

[krazykuda]

I do retail auto parts,that warranty means nothing.......

[ame]http://youtu.be/a5dpBpaFiMo[/ame]

 

[Bad Sport]

A crate engine with a warranty will run you about $4K.
How miuch would it cost from MRL? I am guessing at least twice that.

Probably, and maybe a bit more depending on what you want, BUT you would have 4 times the engine.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Probably, and maybe a bit more depending on what you want, BUT you would have 4 times the engine.

So are you saying no one can build an engine as good as MRL? I'm CERTAINLY not knocking Mike. He's very much a stand up guy. But there are people everywhere that can build just as good an engine. Probably for less money. And again, I'm not knockin him. If that's what you want to spend money on, go for it. I can do a good bit of what the machine shop would do here at my house, so I can save a nice chunk. Plus, I have a machine shop that's very reasonable. Not saying Mike isn't.....probably the opposite. The shop I use still does things the old fashioned way....BUT they know how to use the equipment. Mike on the other hand, has the latest and greatest stuff, no doubt. I bet dollars to doughnuts, I or any number of members here could build one that would compete on the dyno right in their own back yard shop.

 

[cudaracer]

^
Assuming I don't have the resources like rusty to do much of my machining or assembly, or the lack of tools for that proper assembly, or the adequate experience with a bastardization of mopar components and their proper needed marriage, (cam needs, etc.) or for that matter....Any experience assembling a complete motor ever and the future time to do it myself....then how much of a gamble is the cheaper option of a warrantied crate motor?

 

[BrianT]

....then how much of a gamble is the cheaper option of a warrantied crate motor?

Re-read the posts above. A guarantee is only as good as the company offering it, and most of the time on a high performance piece, the company is going to try and fight you and say that you did something wrong to cause the failure. Do a search here on crate engines and read what others have experienced.

When your local (or not) machinist hand builds an engine, his reputation and possibly his money is on the line. He should take the time to do things right and not cut any corners. I don't think that can be said about the guys who are assembling crate engines.

That being said, my buddy has a 360/380 crate engine in his Demon and he beats on it regularly. Is he one of the lucky ones?!?

 

[RustyRatRod]

Re-read the posts above. A guarantee is only as good as the company offering it, and most of the time on a high performance piece, the company is going to try and fight you and say that you did something wrong to cause the failure. Do a search here on crate engines and read what others have experienced.

When your local (or not) machinist hand builds an engine, his reputation and possibly his money is on the line. He should take the time to do things right and not cut any corners. I don't think that can be said about the guys who are assembling crate engines.

That being said, my buddy has a 360/380 crate engine in his Demon and he beats on it regularly. Is he one of the lucky ones?!?

Right. ^^^^^ This is why MRL might be a great choice for some. I don't know what Mike's warranty is, but there's no doubt in my mind that he would not leave anyone out in the cold were something to happen. Most companies will look for ways to get out of warranty. Mike just ain't that kinda dude. That in and of itself makes it more worth the price IF you can afford it and would rather not build one yourself. Hell, if I could afford it, I would get together with Mike and have him build me one. But I ain't got a pile of money.

 

[Dart_Doctor]

If i can do it with help form my friends . One who is in this thread then any one can .

 

[krazykuda]

If i can do it with help form my friends . One who is in this thread then any one can .

Yep, he did. Dart_Doctor and Old Tired Rebel did a great job working on the engine.

We all verified the torque on every bolt to make sure that they were tight and to let everyone experience how to build the engine first hand.


I would be willing to walk you through a build. It's not that difficult. I am also going to do a "How to" build thread in the future on a small block for others to reference. I've been building my own engines for over 33 years now. I've built daily driver engines that went over 200 k miles.

By building it yourself, you get to do it YOUR way to YOUR standards. I'm a perfectionist, if it isn't right, I won't do it. I will stop and seek the parts that I need to make it right before continuing instead of take a chance. When I build my own engine, I keep in mind that it's my @ss that has to walk home if it breaks, so I build them so they don't break, because I don't like to walk home.... :banghead:

Also once you build it, you learn how everything works and how to fix it if anything comes up in the future. It may also suck you in, to want to build more. It's fun and exciting. There's nothing like the thrill of when you build your first engine and install it in your car and the first time that it fires up - What a rush. There's no better feeling than when your first engine build fires up and you know that IT WAS ALL YOU! Nothing else can beat that rush and sense of pride/accomplishment. Not even sex, drugs, or Rock-N-Roll (or Country whichever you like)...

Not to mention that you get bragging rights by doing it yourself. :glasses7:

 

[67dartgtgo]

Re-read the posts above.
That being said, my buddy has a 360/380 crate engine in his Demon and he beats on it regularly. Is he one of the lucky ones?!?

I'm counting myself as one of the lucky ones too. Have a '98 Mopar Performance Magnum 360/320HP in my Dart. Came with it when I bought it. Has about 35k on it and goes great. I beat it like a rug, revs high and is as sound as can be. That's after it sat for 13 years, well oiled and turned regularly but not started/run. Gonna run it till it drops.
I've heard some not great stories about some of the crates but feel pretty good about the one in my ride. So far so good anyway.

 

[barbee6043]

people ask why we spend this time and money on these "old:" cars. probably the biggest reason is the satisfaction of successfully rebuilding, fixing, engineering, etc the car back to functional or exceptionally functional. some folks gets their kicks by writing checks with BIG numbers on them. in the A body hobby those guys are rare. there are reasons we play with a's and reasons why some buy new Challlys!!?????
this said, there are a lot of reasons to tackle the engine rebuild yourself.
like Rusty the rat said, YOU can do a lot in your garage. have the fsm, larry sheppards book on engine rebuilding, find an HONEST< CAPABLE machine shop, have a realistic plan (blueprint) as to what you want, need and the parts to achieve that. like said, the rush you get when you fire it up the first time well, don't let on to your wife!!!! LOL

 

[Bad Sport]

So are you saying no one can build an engine as good as MRL? I'm CERTAINLY not knocking Mike.

No, my comparison is between a built engine (by any known quality engine builder) and a crate engine that you have no idea of parts used or even if it was assembled correctly.

 

[JBurch]

If you can read and assemble a jig-saw puzzle, you can assemble your own engine, it's not that hard. Patients, attention to detail, the belief that there is no such thing as anything being too clean, understanding that there is an order of operations, just like math, and it's done.

I prefer to build my own, then if something goes wrong, the only place to point the finger is at myself, AND......when it goes right, it's one of the best feeling you'll ever have.

 

[pishta]

I do retail auto parts,that warranty means nothing.......

I agree, the crate motor warranty is worthless. The failure will ALWAYS be your fault. improper lubrication, cooling, etc. No way to prove it outside a court trial with an expert witness and a motorhead judge. Biuld it with your son, good times. With the money you saved , get yourself an EFI setup for mileage and driveability. Most of the cost is machining and if your crank and bores are within spec, your bucks ahead.

Warranty sidebar: Buddy had a newer 300C w/6.1 hemi. Bought 3rd party warranty on drivetrain. Well, hemi dropped a valve seat (imagine that!) and destroyed the head. Warranty company denied coverage due to fact that "it wasnt a lubrication or moving part related problem, read the fine print..." and it stuck! $800 later it dropped another seat in the opposite head! Ouch.....Local machine shop warranty may be equally hard to collect on..imagine trying to collect from mom and pop on a $3500 warranty, they will go BK, and pop up under new ownership and youll still be out. A few threads in here on that.