Cuda and its new 360

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1966 dart wagon

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Hey guys dont worry this isnt a pick a cam, well i know what i wanna do anyways.....if that helps, anyways:

i got permision to build a 360 out of a van its build date is 1975 woohoo anyways my dad says it needs a timing chain, but i was gonna rebuild it anyways. Is this a good platform, cause i'm pretty sure i'm gonna use it. i was gonna rip it all apart and fill it full of parts...on a hs student budget, in other words the money that i make, not much, will go into the cuda/engine.

i was gonna rip it apart get it bored 30 over to clean it up, put a 408 storker crank in her and i'm looking for 400hp, and mid to low 12's for the qt mile, but with this i also want the car to be a good 'track car' as in it can corner and isnt just a straight liner if you know what i mean. Id like to take it to some local autox's(track racing around cones) and not get laughed at and show old cars can turn.
o and keep in mind most of these parts are from jegs

eagle crank 408: $300]
speed pro pistons 30 over 9.5 cr(is this for stock rod length) flat top $240 with rings
eagle rods 6.123 length $293
please sugest better if you know of better for the next stuff or anything

cloyes timming chain double roller $90

stock heads 2.02, and 1.6 valves with slight port and maybe a self polish job or both.

i was thinking a crank cam 278-2 cam requires 2500+ stall conv. if i keep it auto power 2000-6200(ok with further looking its not listed but something similar)

For pushrods i was thinking crank, 5/16 stock length mechanical or hyd?
id like to get alum. roller rockers i found some 1.5 with shafts 200 for sb chy.
i'm not to sure about valve springs here, idk like to be able to rev the engine to i dunno 6k ill probably go crane too here prings with retainers 99.99

then go with a mr gasket kit $40

also arp bolts for the crank, heads, rods.

i forgot intake edlebrock air gap

holly double pumper 750

headers where should i get em do hookers fit?
dual exhaust of course

what you guys think then throw some sway bars on her, some home made sub frame connectors stiffer rear springs, newer socks all around, level tires that are good. do you think it will out perform my stock honda, i want it to be good but not like a freakin viper, it be nice but $$$$$$$$$ :thumblef:

thanks guys
 
Advice on cam;

Choose the cam on;
1; driving RPM range/cruise RPM range
2; beware of lift for clearance, mostly not a problem with aftermarket pistons. They allready come with deep reliefs.
3; Not less than a 110 centerline for street driving.
4; Get the whole package from the cam manufacture, IE cam, lifters, springs.
5; Pushrods are a certain length for certain applications. Also, the tops are different for the Hyd. or Mech rockers.
I'd beware of $200 roller rockers. Proforms right. I'd beware again. I've read a lot of failures on HI-po engines with these. Set up to at least Comp Cams or Cranes cams rockers. Expensive but quality parts.
tti makes the only "Fitting" headers, but Hookers and Headmans seem to do well most of the time.
MoPar performance parts make a boxed gasket set that has all the gaskets for the engine top to bottom. A great deal. They leave non out.
A timing chain tensioner from MoPar is a inexpensive $30 part that helps the chain and timing stay good.
 
Something everyone always seems to not remeber is how important upgraded brakes are for an updated car, and especially if you want to hit the auto cross. Start reading up on the old road racers from back in the day and on websites like grassrootsmotorsports, and magazines like popular hot rodding that specialize in a well rounded car, Not just straight line stuff.
 
yeah i wasnt really sure about the cheap roller rockers or the gasket kit :silent: thanks for the sugestions guys i really appreciate it even if i cant spell it haha, if that is correct anyways. Yeah i'm thinking of eventually doing a willwood brake swap front disc with everything to convert...$900 :silent:
 
ive been going through what you are. ive had the 340 for a while and its been at the shop and ive had plans, and once again, on a high school budget. so it'll be kinda a slow process so stick with it and you'll get there. dave
 
Before you start crunching numbers on a motor build. How is the transmission? 904? 727? and what size rear end? Do you have the drivetrain to support a stroker?
 
Which Speed Pro pistons are you looking into? I dont know of any with a 4" stroke, they are for stock cranks, 3.31 for 318s and 340s, 3.58 for 360s...

If you go with the 4" crank:
use forged pistons. They do make hypers for that, Keith Black does anyway IIRC, but you dont want a hyper in taht application. the piston speed with a 4" crank is much faster, and tthe ceiling for saftey with a hyper is about 6K. If you plan to rev it to there at all, use forged. For the extra couple hundred, they are more than worth it. The rods and crank must be checked out before you use them, by a qualified performance shop. Eagle is one of the brands that HAS to be looked at, the rods cycled, etc. Assume they will need a little work to get them "right". Cheap parts need a little attention to get good, but then will far exceed the stock type stuff strength wise and be well worth the cost. You will need to get the right bearings for the larger radius on the cranks..DIfferent suffix, I cant recall what they are, have it at home. Dont use I beams from Eagle, or Scat, or anybody else that sells them cheap (my opinion here..). Heads will be on the small side, even when ported by a good porter. They will work just fine, and make mad torque, just dont expect huge horsepower or rpms from them. They need the biggest valves (2.05/1.60), the bowls cleaned up, the pushrod pinch widened a bit, and gasket matching, plus the exh side ported. Polishing is a huge waste of effort IMO. It's money that can be spent better. Keep the static compression down around 9.5:1. run a cam that is around 240* @ .050, with more on the exh side, with lifts under .540".
As far as machining for the block. I do this : install ARP studs in mains, align bore/hone, square deck, bore and hone, deburr, clearance for stroke. Any less IMO is not a performance build made to last. It's a stock rebuild, that will work, but leaves some power/longevity on the table. Internally balance the rotating assembly. Very important. It's the right way, makes more power, makes more smoother, and makes parts changes later down stream (like TQ convertors) easier.

For a 360(3.58) stroke: Any hyper piston is fine for use to 6500-7K. Forged is better, but heavier. Crank is cast, so balancing gets more $$ with forged. Stock rods w/ARP bolts. Street rings, and that's it. Heads, dont go largest valves, 2.02/1.60 is fine. Cams, hydraulics say around 220*.050 duration, and a little more on exh. The 110-112 centerline cams will run strong all thru the rpm band, as stated earlier by Rumble. Pushrods..use what the engine tells you to. If you need to keep the compression up with the heads being milled, then you may need shorter ones..Adjustable rockers means new pushrods. Dont buy early and expect them to fit perfect..Wait until the shortblock is put together, and the length checked. The 408, when geard and tired properly, will go faster than mid 12s. The 360, will run mid 12s all day, but feel softer around town at lower engine speeds. Machining is the same, just use ARP botls instead of studs, and still do the align bore/hone.
 
Those Willwoods or Baers are mucho denaro but nice. Dont know if you have front discs but if you do I'd say just a resurface on the stock front discs with new pads and a full bleed. Thats about as good as it gets on stock stuff as far as I know.
 
well goody i have the weeny 7 1/4 rear, and a 904 trans in her now, i'm going to be calling some junkyards this week and see if they have any 4 speeds, along with 8 3/4 rears too for my car. I really appreciate the advice guys, i cant remember if i said this but the car will be drove over 99.9% on the streets, then maybe some stoplight racing, and going to the local track. I also want the car to handle so man i have quite the project :silent: i'll keep on reasearching

forgot to add the trans is bad, it leaks, clunks when put into reverse, seems like it wines all the way threw first
 
Dang Moper,
First you go to extremes then to basics, some times I just don't follow you?
I/We have 365 that runs mid to low 11's in a truck and has a hyd. cam and a shorty set of hedders, and your saying that it takes a stroker engine and parts? I just don't see it. Maybe you need to reread the post that you did as I get mixed signals from it, one time you talk about large valves and the next they are smaller, then the ports? I'm not getting personal here but you've never built a real race engine and would know or the results and your statements would be different. Quit spending other peoples money when they don't have it on strokers.
Maybe I'm just old but I WON'T BS anyone, get real and do whats right, if you can't do it just step back and let someone else take over, now I'm not saying that I'm the best but I have more contacts than most and can get answers faster that matter from people that matter. Maybe this is why my stuff runs faster than most with everyone elses same parts, theres trick's to these things to get them done, and much are far simplier than here. It's just machining.


BJR Racing,
 
Always nice to hear from you Billy. I do just fine spending other peoples money, and so far, no major lack of satisfaction from my customers. I did have a 440 that spun a rod bearing a few years back, and at one point I left an extension from my wratchet in the valley of a 360 that resulted in some noises, but everybody's human.
My last 416, solid roller cam, Shady Dell Speed Edelbrock headed street engine is running fine in CA. At least, that's what the owner said in his letter and $150 tip (My assembly fee for his was $300..Indy charges $1000 IIRC, and they have issues). His brother in Michigan is assembling the 496 I machined for him, also edelbrock heads. That's for a bracket Duster, 4link car.
The used 440 I went thru for my buddy's '71 Cuda was just dyno'd 2 weeks ago. Hydraulic cam, stock rockers, junk 516 heads I ported, and a $600 used but rebuilt shortblock running TRW heavy pistons. It only made 378hp @ 5200, 480tq @ 3500 at the tires, on a known stingy(my preferred) dyno. It makes 450 pound feet tq from 2300 to 4800, on pump gas, with the sixpac, and a cam under .520 lift. Do the math. Thats a pump gas 440 that makes 525tq+ and just shy of 440hp with the head well documented to have the worst exh flow of all factory castings, and an intake system that many racers and builders know is fairly restrictive. It cost him $2000 to have it complete and running in the car including the heads and new cam/timing set, headers, and distributor, not including the iron six pack and carbs. My work for him was free, we barter a lot, but I'd charge $500 for the work I did to a stranger.
I work within budgets, and I make the power the customer asks for, in an engine that doesnt break as long as they are honest with me about usage and habits.
I have a 440Source kit B block 451 ready to be assembled for a fellow a couple towns over. It will be completed with Edelbrock heads, and a flat tappet cam. His cost will be close to $6K, but he'll still need a convertor, headers, intake, and bigger carb than the 383 in his RR. That 383, in a '69 RR with 3.23s at a track rental 3 weeks ago, I took from 14.80s to 14.1 and got 4mph more from it. That was for nothing. He's still running the carb I built for him. I bought it at a swap, went thru it with my time and $$ for the AED kit I used, and I tuned it at the track. Hasnt cost him a dime so far.
I post costs in my builds because for most guys, cost is an issue they fight the whole way thru. And I'm a firm believer in being honest. Can I build a $1500 360 that runs 11s? Sure. It just wont last, or have every nut and bolt included in that cost, and it sure wont be running a low stall convertor and street gears, but I can build it.
I build street engines primarilly, that race occasionally. It's much easier to make an 11 second race car, than an 11 second street car, that drives 50 miles round trip to work ,runs the power brakes, gets spun to 6800 on the highway racing Hondas for 20 miles, and runs on pump gas, reliably. But you already know that, or should. I assume most guys appreciate that honesty from me. It sure makes up for being despondant when they pick up the engine, and it feels sluggish because of the TQ convertor replacement the builder left out of the build up cost, or the 5/16th fuel line that wont feed the 500" big block like the 383 could run with.
I guess it's easy to judge when you're a thousand miles south of here, and you do this for a living. Oh, that's right, I forgot, this is a hobby for me. You have years on me, and years of being in the business full time. You better be better at engines than I am, my mortage doesnt depend on my engines. Personally (since you opened that door), I find a lot of your guidance severly dated anyway. There are a ton more options in 2006 than what you typically suggest. Many are less money overall, and give better results than the "old tech". Your pricing, in your posts anyway, also seems to be based on old price sheets, not PDF files, if you catch my drift. I doubt if the end cost once the car makes it's first runs on the new engine is really what is posted, but I'm in the most expensive state in the country, so maybe that's the difference.
I dont belive in pounding my chest, or being the loudest in a crowd, so you dont hear what I do. I'm only listing stuff here as a response. You'll see an entire car I did ecept for bodywork at Carlisle. I just pulled it from the body shop yesterday morning in NY city. It's a G machine '73 Cuda, running a 432" Indy crate engine (NOT my choice, and he's already regretting the purchase), Gear Venders OD, Baer brakes, tubular control arms, trick headlights, electronics, 17" front, 18" rears. I set the car up for road racing, and repaired thousands of dollars of misguided previous repairs, and it's easliy capable of cruising at 150mph for hours. Did I say he contacted me?
I dont solicit as I've seen you and other business owners do here. It's not my way, For Sale or Wanted ads have thier own threads. People that like my work talk for me. Heck, I've even posted for guys to call you for some stuff they needed to have done.
I do complete body jobs, rust repair, wire race cars, do string alignments in my garage, have 11.0 street cars runing my rears and transmissions, plus do engine building, which is where my interest really lies. And I can do all of it fairly well, at least well enough that I have earned a living doing it. I fell back on it several times in my life. I've been an ASE master tech, incuding Engine Performance.
As far as this particular post, I gave 2 seperate builds. I thought it was simple, maybe the poster did too, if not, I'm sure he'll respond other than "thanks for the advice". If you cant keep up with my mind, that's find..I sometimes get too excited and dont make sense. My friends tell me that all the time, so I have to sit and clarify for them too.
I'm sure our paths will cross at some point. I'd still love to sit and have some beers with you some day as I'm sure I can learn a lot from you. From our consversation, I felt we werent in direct competition, just two guys trying to help people out. From this last post, perhaps I was giving you too much credit. Too bad you are under the impression you already know everything. Have a great Memorial Day!
 
Well 1966 Dart Wagon I hope you found an answer that you could use in all of that. As for the rest of us, I guess you could just say it was entertaining.
 
Moper,
As for what you said that you do this for a hobby and mainly build street engines, I can understand where your comming from, as there's a guy here that does the same engines that you do with basically the same results. He too has all the good parts ARP, Edelbrock,4340 cranks and rods and all the rest and the results are very similar. The parts that I use may be old tech. but they still work very well when used properly and for the price of the "new" tech. and the minor gains that they produce verses the cost doesn't seem to gratifying. When you spend $300.00-$400.00 and pick up .3-.4 tenths in ET in the 1/8 mi. then the cost would be justified, weather it's in a street car or race car, and a street car should be easier to do than a race car.
As far as the engines lasting and being durable, I guess this is what you base your parts on, verses the stock compoents, I haven't had any problems as I have used my own engines in daily drivers for 80,000 - 100,000 miles then put them in race cars and used them there without touching them for a few years before having to go back through them.
As for being in direct competition with you, I've never looked at it this way, sorry that you do. You have your clients and I have mine. I just don't think that everone needs or wants a stroker with large valves and aluminum heads with a $4000.00 - $6000.00 price tag for the street.
I guess IMO I would be very dissapointed if I spent this kind of money and could only run in the 11's or 12's but this is just my opinion. I know everone has one.
If you have 10 racers together you will have 10 different opinions on what works.
As far as judgeing you I don't,........ this is for someone else to do as I won't judge anyone, now I do have my own opinion, but then everone has this right, I know sometimes I should keep them to myself. I guess it bothers me to see people spending $$$$$$$ needlessly on parts that will show no gain or a very small gain for there application and everyday use.
As for the impression that I know everything, I'll be the first to admit that I don't and I learn everyday IMO I'll stop learning when I get planted. Sorry If I came off this way.
Heres a quote that has stuck in my head for 30 yrs. +,

"If it wasn't for old school you couldn't have a new school, I don't look at it this way, as I see it old school is school that has matured"

If it wasn't for teachers and inventor's (old school) we would still be riding horses.

Have a happy Memorial Day.
 
Now now Moper and BJR, lets not sling mud. Were here for the same reason, to help.
Take it to PM's for a gentleman like talk. I know theres 2 good peoples here.
Smart minds may not allways think alike, but the goal is the same.
 
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