Differences in master cylinders....

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frederick_76

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Ok,so I did the disc convertion years ago on my 69 Valiant. I put the proper proportionning valve in. My question: is there any difference in the drum x drum vs disc x drum master cylinders. I do have a duel reservoir master on the car.
 
The disc resivoir of the disc/drum master is larger.
You should use a disc/drum master if you have front disc brakes with rear drums.
 
Yes. ^^^ The disc brake master cylinder needs to be able to move more fluid.
 
The short answer is YES you do need to change the master. The front discs require much more fluid movement hence the larger reservoir. It's a safety issue more than anything so do change it.
 
Yes now that I think about it ...I have it wrong.As long as it is a disc/drum master cylinder you can use it for manual or power.And if you have a drum/drum master cylinder you can use it for manual or power.This is what the people at Fines lines told me.
 
as pads wear the pistons will use more fluid so the larger reservoir is used for that.The disc reservoir outlet does not have a residual valve like some drum reservoirs.
You could use a drum/drum master for disc drum,just remove the residual valve if there is one and keep an eye on the reservoir level for the discs if it's a daily driver.
 
as pads wear the pistons will use more fluid so the larger reservoir is used for that.The disc reservoir outlet does not have a residual valve like some drum reservoirs.
You could use a drum/drum master for disc drum,just remove the residual valve if there is one and keep an eye on the reservoir level for the discs if it's a daily driver.


xx2
 
The only reason the disk reservoir is larger is to allow for WEAR on the pads. It does not need to be larger for day - to - day operation. I'm using my stock factory all drum master for 4x disks on my 67, I simply ruptured the residual valves. Keep an eye on the fluid.
 
The only reason the disk reservoir is larger is to allow for WEAR on the pads. It does not need to be larger for day - to - day operation. I'm using my stock factory all drum master for 4x disks on my 67, I simply ruptured the residual valves. Keep an eye on the fluid.

Not really the same as the op's application. Your running 4 wheel disc, his is front disc only.

Here's the info I typically see with a simple web search:

From Master Power Brakes:

How does a disc brake master differ from a drum brake master?
A drum brake master will differ from a disc brake master in two ways. The amount of fluid that a drum brake master has to move is less than disc brake. Drum brake masters have 10 lb residual valves at the outlet to keep a residual pressure on the drums. If you use a drum brake master for disc brakes you would move an insufficient volume of fluid and the disc brakes would drag because of the residual valves.

What will happen if I use a master cylinder for drum brakes and it doesn't have a residual valve?
You will have a spongy pedal and you'll have to pump the pedal to get good brakes.

I have manual brakes and I have an extremely hard pedal. Why?
Check the bore size of your master. If it is larger than 1" then you will have a very hard pedal.

What bore size do you need for manual brakes?
If you use anything larger than 1" then you will have an extremely hard pedal.The smaller the bore the more pressure that is output to the wheels.

What is the difference between a power brake master and a manual brake master?
A power brake master will have a larger bore diameter than a manual master.

Can I use a shallow hole master in a manual brake application?
No. The piston hole must be deep so the manual push rod does not fall out.

Can I use my manual master on a booster?
Yes.

Can I use a power brake master without a booster?
Usually not. The bore size will be too large giving a hard pedal and the piston hole will be shallow allowing the push rod to fall out.

Why is one fluid chamber larger than the other in a disc/drum master?
As disc brake pads wear the caliper pistons will move outward. The fluid level in the master will drop more rapidly than the drum portion so you need more reserve.

Should I buy a rebuilt or new master?
Always try to use a new master. Rebuilts tend to have a high failure rate. The best way to rebuild a master is to stainless steel sleeve it.

Can I use a disc/drum master for four wheel disc brakes?
Usually not. For 4 wheel disc brakes to function properly you will need a master that has a longer stroke.
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From MBM:

DRUM / DRUM

A drum / drum master is designed to deliver fluid pressure and volume to the front and the rear of a braking system in equal proportions. Drum brakes will require less fluid and pressure than disc brakes. Typically a drum brake master will be smaller than a disc master and the fluid reservoir chambers will be equal in size. Since drum brakes require the use of residual pressure valves the original drum master cylinders had residual valves built into the outlets. Later model aftermarket units do not have these valves and they must be installed in the lines externally. Failure to incorporate residual valves will cause spongy brakes.

Generally speaking it's not a good idea to use a drum brake master for disc brakes since the amount of fluid the cylinder pushes will not be sufficient.




DISC / DRUM

A disc / drum master is designed to push more fluid volume to the front disc brakes since disc brakes require more volume than drum brakes. Generally speaking a disc / drum master will have one fluid reservoir larger than the other.This is because the disc brake pads wear faster than the drum shoes and the fluid reservoir will drop faster. Original disc / drum masters had a built in residual pressure valve to the rear drum brakes only.

Never reverse the outlets on a disc / drum master. Doing this will cause the front disc brakes to drag excessively from the residual pressure valve.





DISC / DISC


A four wheel disc brake master cylinder is designed to supply more fluid pressure and volume to the rear disc brakes than the disc / drum master does. This is acheived through an internal piston re design. The piston that feeds the rear brakes on a disc / drum master will run out of stroke, limiting the amount of fluid pressure and volume that may be supplied to the rear isc brakes.

The four wheel disc master re design delivers the extra needed volume and pressure to the rear allowing your rear disc brakes to function properly. If you attempt to use a disc/drum master on a four wheel disc system you will get poor rear brake function and experience a spongy brake pedal with a long pedal travel.

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From Master Power Brakes:

What is the difference between a power brake master and a manual brake master?
A power brake master will have a larger bore diameter than a manual master.
This one is not correct for Mopar A-bodies. Our boosters have a lever in the stand-off brackets. Power brake master cylinders generally have a smaller bore diameter than manual masters. Check rockauto to verify. The lever ratio explains why.
 
This one is not correct for Mopar A-bodies. Our boosters have a lever in the stand-off brackets. Power brake master cylinders generally have a smaller bore diameter than manual masters. Check rockauto to verify. The lever ratio explains why.



I knew I should have cut and pasted a smaller section! :banghead:

;)
 
differences between masters pre 73 and post 73? Means swapping from 4 pistons to one piston sliding caliper? My pedal feels softer now after the swap.
 
A partial quote:

A four wheel disc brake master cylinder is designed to supply more fluid pressure and volume to the rear disc brakes than the disc / drum master does. This is acheived through an internal piston re design. The piston that feeds the rear brakes on a disc / drum master will run out of stroke, limiting the amount of fluid pressure and volume that may be supplied to the rear isc brakes.

The four wheel disc master re design delivers the extra needed volume and pressure to the rear allowing your rear disc brakes to function properly. If you attempt to use a disc/drum master on a four wheel disc system you will get poor rear brake function and experience a spongy brake pedal with a long pedal travel. -


I've never heard of such a thing.

The rear piston of a tandem master is directly actuated by the pedal pushrod, and this is hooked to the front brakes on either a disk drum or a disk disk system, so how is a "piston redesign" going to affect internal pressure in the master"

Let me once again dispel this myth...................IF THE MASTER BORE is of the correct bore SIZE to give you the right "leg ratio" for overall pressure to stop the thing, and IF you watch the fluid level over a reasonable length of time AKA "months" once you set the system set up, bled, and shoes adjusted, the reservoir size is not material whether disk /drum or disk disk. The large disk reservoir was for "us idiots," that is, "us idiots" who buy our cars, drive our cars for 100K miles without ever thinking of checking anything on them as you know there are those of us who do

So to repeat myself once again............

I have the little bitty 67 master, the ORIGINAL 9" drum-drum master on mine which runs the 74 Duster disks, and Versailles rear disks, and this gets me maybe 25%? to maybe 35% this is just a guess or so of pedal stroke? to a hard pedal and the thing STOPS.

So the point is that this idea that disk brakes "USE" so much fluid is so much malarky.
 
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